It’s crucial to focus not only on hiring talent with a high-driven purpose, but also in catering to the needs of your department, being open to feedback and communication, and shifting to a talent-centric organization that provides a safe workplace for you and your co-workers.

 

Carol Schultz is the founder and CEO of Vertical Elevation. She is a talent equity and leadership advisory expert. Recognized for her proficiency in corporate leadership, she’s spent three decades helping executives gain clarity in their careers, make bold leadership moves, and create cultures of performance. Schultz and her team have helped hundreds of companies– from seed-stage pre-initial public offerings to publicly traded companies– transform their organizations and create sustainable, talent-centric cultures that run at maximum efficiency. She’s the host of the popular podcast, Authentically Successful, and the author of the new book, Powered By People: How Talent-Centric Organizations Master Recruitment, Retention, and Revenue (and How to Build One).

 

In this episode, Carol shares how you can execute a talent-centric strategy for you and your business while providing an open-to-growth safe space for you and your coworkers.

 
 

What you will learn from this episode:

  • Discover the three core principles of a talent-centric organization

  • Learn how to switch up your job descriptions and make recruitment much easier

  • Understand the power of being open to conversation and getting feedback within your organization and the departments

 
 

“It’s about shifting how you think, and therefore how you work. You cannot shift how you think and have mindset shifts, unless and until we can start coming up with and figuring out where your blind spots are.”

– Carol Schultz

 
 

Valuable Free Resource:

 
 

Topics Covered:

 

02:07 – Building a talent-centric organization and fixing up your strategy: What Carol does best to help you and your organization

 

03:54 – Carol shares how to spot a talent-centric organization and how to make yours into one

 

05:41 – How often does misalignment happen in the workplace?

 

06:11 – Who Beats Who: Carol talks about why departments aren’t supposed to be treated as competition in the organization

 

07:47 – Carol explains what are the three core principles that are at the center of a talent-centric organization

 

09:42 – What are the blind spots in your organization that you should be looking for?

 

10:53 – Doing It How It’s Supposed to Be: What made Carol write her book?

 

12:38 – Carol shares what’s the goal of her book and what she wants readers to learn from it

 

13:58 – Being More Than Just That: Carol examines what goes into a job description and shares how you should be writing yours

 

16:13 – Ditching the Post-and-Pray: Carol points out why you should stop doing the post-and-pray method and start writing some compelling job ads

 

17:54 – Why should you pay more attention to talent activities than any other thing?

 

20:18 – Carol shares how important being open to conversations really is especially in the workplace

 

21:09 – Q:If you’re a leader, are you really actively, proactively putting your hand down for other women than helping them like men have done in time in memoriam? A: And if you are a woman who is not a leader, and you’re looking toward your women leaders to say, “Hey, you know. Are you willing to help me up?”

 

22:04 – Learn more on how you can execute a talent-centric strategy by clicking here: https://verticalelevation.com/

 
 

Key Takeaways:

 

“The reality is, recruiting is never your problem. What your problem is a strategy problem.” – Carol Schultz

 

“Each individual and every single department in the company has to contribute to being a healthy sustainable company.” – Carol Schultz

 

“So many people think their problems are something other than what they actually are.” – Carol Schultz

 

“You need to go ahead and hunt people. That’s the way to find people.” – Carol Schultz

 
 

Ways to Connect with Carol Schultz:

 
 

Ways to Connect with Sarah E. Brown

 
 

Full Episode Transcript:

 

Carol Schultz 0:00

Interviewing the stakeholders for the job, for the position that is open, and asking them 40 or 50 questions about the job, about the position, and then writing something that is appropriate to really now saying, this is what this position is.

 

Sarah E. Brown 0:26

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women, where we talk about the challenges senior female leaders face in being happy and successful at work. I’m your host, Dr. Sarah E. Brown.

 

Sarah E. Brown 0:46

My guest today is Carol Schultz. She is the founder and CEO of Vertical Elevation, a talent equity and leadership advisory firm. Recognized for her proficiency in corporate leadership, she spent three decades helping executives gain clarity in their careers, make bold leadership moves and create cultures of performance. Schultz and her team have helped hundreds of companies from seed-stage pre-initial public offerings to publicly traded companies. She’s helped them transform their organizations and create sustainable, talent-centric cultures that run at maximum efficiency. She’s the host of the popular podcast Authentically Successful and the author of a new book Powered by People: How Talent-Centric Organizations Master Recruitment, Retention, and Revenue (and How to Build One). And that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. Carol, welcome!

 

Carol Schultz 1:52

Sarah, a pleasure to be with you.

 

Sarah E. Brown 1:54

So just to get started, so people understand what you do for a living, talk a little bit about your business and what the key problem is you’re helping executives address as a part of your business.

 

Carol Schultz 2:07

Right. So, what I’m doing is partnering with primarily founders and CEOs. I can also be brought in by someone on the board or the investment, you know, venture capitalist, private equity firm. And what I do is I partner with them to build, as you said, a talent-centric organization. So, what is that? That is an organization where, in its simplicity, where your talent strategy is aligned and supports your business strategy and vision. Getting there is a little bit more complicated than that, however. So, the problem that I’m solving is, I hear all sorts of different things from executives. And when I start to ask them, “What do you think your problem is?”, I get a multitude of different answers from “We can’t find the right people. When we find people, they turn over”. A lot of it boils down to “Recruiting is our problem”. And the reality is, recruiting is never your problem. What your problem is a strategy problem.

 

Sarah E. Brown 3:10

Okay, so their presenting problem is recruiting often.

 

Carol Schultz 3:14

Often, correct.

 

Sarah E. Brown 3:16

Is that the biggest mistake they make before working with you or are there other mistakes they make?

 

Carol Schultz 3:21

It’s usually that, right? Because everybody thinks, as I said, everybody thinks it’s a recruiting problem. And recruiting is just not a solution. It’s a symptom of the problem, which is alignment at the executive level, communication, and strategy. Yeah.

 

Sarah E. Brown 3:44

So let me ask you this question, say a little bit more about a talent-centered organization. And how would I know one if I saw it?

 

Carol Schultz 3:54

Well, the first thing that I- the first questions that I ask an executive team in discovery are, and I asked each individual, you know, each member individually, what’s your vision for the organization? And I listened for their answers. Am I getting the same answer from everyone? Am I getting a different answer? Okay. Usually, it’s a different answer.

 

Sarah E. Brown 4:17

So, it starts with aligning the business strategy.

 

Carol Schultz 4:20

That’s exactly correct! I also asked a question. We talked about this in the book as well, that, you know, each member of the team, “What do you believe is the most important function or department in the company that’s contributing to your success?” That’s where I get different answers from pretty much everyone. You know, sales think they’re the most important guy. Tech thinks they’re the most important guy. You know, finance may think they’re the most important guy because they’re holding the finance, the purse strings. And all these questions start to do- when I start to ask these and then I expand from there about why they think these are- this is the case, is I’m just looking for the gap. For example, on a scale of one to 10, one being we’re not even remotely aligned to 10, we’re fully aligned and we are rowing together, I’m looking to see where the gap is. Because until I can see where the gap is, I can’t help them close the gap on that alignment. And until I have that, I can’t start looking at, you know, where are we missing in communication? Do we have a culture of feedback? I can’t even begin to think about building them a talent strategy to support that.

 

Sarah E. Brown 5:25

Okay, got it! So how often would you say, when you’re getting into work with organizations, that the issue is misalignment on the business strategy before you even get to the talent strategy?

 

Carol Schultz 5:38

Pretty much always!

 

Sarah E. Brown 5:40

That’s interesting.

 

Carol Schultz 5:41

I mean, I’ve asked this question of founder after founder after founder after founder or/and CEO. And it’s always the same thing! Well, yeah, I guess, Mr. CEO. Would everybody- do you think everybody would tell me to give me the same answer for what the vision is, and what the most important department is? No! If you talk to this person, you’d hear this. If you talk to this person, you’d hear this.

 

Sarah E. Brown 6:02

Why is that question around which department is the most important? Are they instructive to you, or to the-

 

Carol Schultz 6:11

Because in a career that, in my career that started 30 years ago, in 1992, I’m actually now in my 31st year. Oh yikes! But really, what, you know, I had this epiphany long, long ago. You know, I can’t tell you how many people I talked to the Head of Sales, like I said, thinks they’re the most important person to our company’s success. Or the Head of, you know, Tech thinks, “Well, you know, without us, you wouldn’t have anything to sell.” Or you know, Customer Success, “Well, without us, you wouldn’t have- you know, we would have churn.” Right? And I could go on to each department. And it’s a red herring is what it is. In reality, if you don’t see, if each of your members of the executive team doesn’t actually get that there is no most important department or function. Then, I mean, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be ebbs and flows, right? If you’ve got a technical challenge with your product, that may take a little bit more effort right now. And that may become a little bit more important right now. And if you have got this recruiting issue, and you’re not aligned, and you’re having turnover, and so on and so forth, and you don’t have the right salespeople, or they’re not selling or there’s a multitude of issues, then that may be the most important thing right now. But overall, each individual and every single department in the company has to contribute to being a healthy sustainable company.

 

Sarah E. Brown 7:30

Okay, got it! So, what you’re really trying to do is flush that principle out.

 

Carol Schultz 7:35

That’s exactly correct! Yeah.

 

Sarah E. Brown 7:37

Okay. Got it. So, in your book, you talk about three core principles that are at the center of a talent-centric organization. What are they?

 

Carol Schultz 7:47

Well, the first is we’ve been talking a little bit about already is leadership working under an aligned vision everyone can articulate, right? So, it has a clear focus on your people. I mean, I can get everyone on the executive team aligned. But if that is then not disseminated throughout the organization, and built into your talent strategy, you’re not going to have that alignment that you need, right? Everything you do drives better experiences for your people. And that, of course, includes the C-suite. The second thing is, as we’ve talked a little bit about, a talent development strategy from recruiting to succession beyond the C-suite, right? This includes building diversity so that companies don’t suffer, and start to suffer from groupthink. Right? And, I see it a lot! Look at the executive team of so many companies. It’s filled with a bunch of white guys!

 

Sarah E. Brown 8:35

Guys?

 

Carol Schultz 8:35

Guys! Yeah, a bunch of white guys. I mean, and that is overall, what we see. Now, there are reasons behind that, and part of that is pipeline control. And that’s, I think, a separate conversation. And then the third thing is built-in blind spot awareness from established feedback loops. This is where the coaching comes in, right? So, it’s about shifting how you think, and therefore how you work. You cannot shift how you think and have mindset shifts, unless until we can start coming up with and figuring out where your blind spots are. Because we live in three realms. We live in you know what you know, right, and you know what you don’t know. But where great coaching exists, where great coaches work, is in the realm of you don’t know what you don’t know. So, we look for those blind spots. And once I can get those blind spots out and my team can get those out, then we can start to put structures in place to support leaders and employees in moving forward, rather than having those blind spots limit them in their progress.

 

Sarah E. Brown 9:39

And how do you go about finding those blind spots?

 

Carol Schultz 9:42

Talking, asking questions, and listening to what’s not being said. I mean, it takes a long time. You know, there are, as we talked, you know, because of the low barrier to entry in coaching, everyone’s a coach all of a sudden. And most of those coaches, don’t have any experience, they have little training. And they often think that what they’re doing is coaching when it’s really just advisory work, consulting work. Right? So consequently, you know, I personally started my own training development work in 1998. And, that launched me into learning how to become a coach. And it is, having experienced great coaching myself, and uncovering my own blind spots along the way, that helped me become a much better coach to other people.

 

Sarah E. Brown 10:35

So, would it be fair to characterize what you’re doing as a bit of strategy and a bit of coaching all at the same time? Okay.

 

Carol Schultz 10:44

That’s exactly correct! It’s some of each. As you know, my business is coaching and advisory work.

 

Sarah E. Brown 10:50

So why did you want to write a book about this?

 

Carol Schultz 10:53

Because so many people think their problems are something other than what they actually are. And my goal is to disrupt the entire industry so that people start doing it the way it needs to be done. You know, there is nothing that gets me more upset than someone who thinks they know my business, the one I turned into an art form over 30 years, better than I do, with no experience. I mean, it would be like me walking in and saying, “Hey, I can do your brain surgery.”

 

Sarah E. Brown 11:33

Hi, this is Sarah Brown, again, the host of the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. I hope you are enjoying this episode and gaining some tips and inspiration on how you can be happier, more successful, and experience less stress at work. If you would like to learn more about how you can empower the women in your organization to do the same, simply click on the show notes to see how you can connect with me. As an added bonus for my podcast guests, you will see how you can book 30 minutes with me to explore how you can implement a scalable self-coaching program for the woman in your organization. Simply visit bookachatwithsarahebrown.com. Now back to this informative episode!

 

Sarah E. Brown 12:30

Or let me take it one step further, I read your book! So, what is it that you want the reader to take away from the book?

 

Carol Schultz 12:38

I want the reader to take away from the book that the way they may be looking at things isn’t the most effective way to be looking at them. Right? So, one of the things I talk about in the book, that I’ve done a lot of writing about, is why talent strategy has zero business reporting to human resources– zero. Human Resources does not understand talent strategy because they’ve never done it. And if they have, they did it for such a minimal period of time that they could never get good at it. So that’s just one thing. So, I believe that CEOs put talent underneath HR because they just don’t know any better.

 

Sarah E. Brown 13:12

Yeah, they don’t know what to do with it either.

 

Carol Schultz 13:14

That’s right! You know, with HR, I’ve had this conversation with HR leaders, where, you know, I had somebody say to me, who’s brilliant in HR operations, you know, the HR has influence and no power. And if they don’t know how to influence, which most, I think, don’t, they can’t get anywhere. So why do you put talent strategy, which is the department that’s responsible for bringing in those people and helping them become talent-centric, underneath the department that doesn’t understand it, and has no influence?

 

Sarah E. Brown 13:41

Okay, I understand that! I understand what you- okay. So, you make some pretty provocative recommendations in your book, like ditching job descriptions is one that comes to mind? Why is that? And what should an organization do instead?

 

Carol Schultz 13:58

So, job descriptions, if you go, I mean, the easiest way for people to look at it is to, if anybody listening to this says, “Oh, yeah, this is our job description for this”, go look at it. Go online and look at all the things, you know, the people are just, you know, those that are using the post-and-pray method. It’s not really- a job description is just a litany of bullet points, you know. And sometimes they get creative and think, “Oh, they’re being very cutesy” and say, “They talk a little bit about the company”. But a position description is something that is built with thought. It’s built with time. It’s built with me or whomever your consulting partner is, or your recruiting partner is interviewing the stakeholders for the job, for the position that is open and asking them 40 or 50 questions about the job, about the position, and then writing something that is appropriate to, really, now saying, “this is what this position is”. This is not you know, “We’re looking for a sales guy and we want you to make sure you’re achieving your quota and, you know, your average deal size should be x.” I mean, those things can be included in your position description, but that’s not a position description in and of itself.

 

Sarah E. Brown 15:09

Okay, so would it be fair to say that your real recommendation is that there was more care involved in what is actually articulated? And, then, therefore, what you’re looking for?

 

Carol Schultz 15:22

Right. The problem is- yeah. The problem is that so many companies are doing this on their own with internal recruiters, and those recruiters don’t know the first thing about how to do this, because they’ve never been trained.

 

Sarah E. Brown 15:34

And thus, a CEO or founder could say, my problem is recruiting.

 

Carol Schultz 15:39

That’s right! And it’s self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

Sarah E. Brown 15:42

And in that case, they might actually be right.

 

Carol Schultz 15:45

Right.

 

Sarah E. Brown 15:46

Okay, I get it. So, if someone is listening to this as a job seeker, what should be the takeaway for them in terms of looking at a job description that is actually posted, or has been sent to them by a recruiter, for example? What should they be wary of? Or is there a way they can take this themselves and turn it to advantage for themselves?

 

Carol Schultz 16:13

That’s a really good question, Sarah. I believe that it’s- I mean, the post-and-pray method, there’s a lot wrong with it, in my opinion, right? They’re just somebody hoping they find the right person. And when, you know, who’s looking at the want ads? People who are looking for a job. So, the right, you know, that still may mean somebody sees a job on LinkedIn, or Indeed or one of the other million places there is to look. So, what should they be wary of? That if you decide as a job seeker, you want to apply for this online ad, this online job, be aware that they may never get back to you. You know, or they may string you along because they’re not communicating with you properly. That’s one of the biggest things. This is why I have huge issues around this kind of thing about writing jobs as your way to go find people. You need to go headhunt people. That’s the way to find people.

 

Sarah E. Brown 17:08

Okay, that’s the takeaway, you need to be leery of any overture that is not a targeted headhunting kind of thing. Okay!

 

Carol Schultz 17:19

Whether it’s an agency or an internal recruiter, that’s correct!

 

Sarah E. Brown 17:23

Okay, I understand that. So, as we’ve talked about, my audience is primarily busy female executives. And, since you’re working with founders that are confounded, no pun intended, by talent strategy and the like, why should a busy female executive pay more attention to talent activities? And what would be the one thing she could do that would move her firm in the right direction, whether she’s a founder or not?

 

Carol Schultz 17:54

Yeah, well, I would say the most important thing she can do, whether she be a founder, or somebody that you know, at the executive level, or even below that, as a female leader, is to look at how her organization is communicating. Right? So, has she built, in a perfect world, as the founder, has built a culture of feedback that is disseminated throughout the organization? Now, if she’s not the founder, and she can still, you know, she’s still the CEO of her, you know, of her department, right? And she needs to make clear the importance of feedback in her organization. And she does that by, and through example, and explaining to her organization, “This is what I want to build. I want anyone in my organization to be able to go to anybody above them, to the side of them, or below them, and be able to talk about what you might be challenged with and what’s not working for you. Because I see it, as again, as the leader of my organization, I see it as a contribution to making us a better, more successful organization.” So, if you as that female leader, start to talk about that, start to do it, use it through example, those other people in your organization will start to do the same. It will make your job easier because people will now start to come to you becoming their managers.

 

Sarah E. Brown 18:33

And that’s something we all can do. And we can do it with relatively little bandwidth.

 

Carol Schultz 19:35

That’s right. That’s exactly right! It may take you a little bit of time, out of the box, but once people start to get that, “Gosh, I’m not going to get thrown under the bus if I go to my manager or somebody else and say, ‘I’m dealing with this problem. I need, you know, this is not working for me.'” Great! Let’s see if we can fix that for you. And it may not be you as the female leader of the department. There may be somebody else who can handle that issue. But everybody in your organization has to be really on board with that culture of feedback and not thinking, “Well, I’m being criticized. So, you know, I want you out of here”. You can’t do that.

 

Sarah E. Brown 20:06

Okay, so that’s a really good message about the culture of feedback. So, are there any other provocative recommendations in your book or that you have cultivated in your practice that you want to share?

 

Carol Schultz 20:18

There seems to be a lot. People keep saying, “You have a lot of controversial issues in your book.” You know, I think the only thing I would share, Sarah, is the importance of being open to a conversation about what it would look like to become talent-centric, and really start to be introspective about it. So many people, so many founders put this off because they always think they have something that’s more important. And ultimately, there may be something more important today, but, you know, what’s that going to cost you down the road?

 

Sarah E. Brown 20:55

Okay, so what have I not asked you, Carol, that I should have that would be helpful to my audience in understanding and taking just one little baby step forward to building a talent-centric organization?

 

Carol Schultz 21:09

That’s a really good question. It’s funny, I ask the same thing at the end of my podcast to people, to my guest. I think that especially for females, which is, you know, which is the audience that you’re growing, it is to look, and if you’re a leader, are you really actively, proactively putting your hand down for other women than helping them like men have done in time in memoriam? Right? And if you are a woman who is not a leader, and you’re looking toward your women leaders to say, “Hey, you know. Are you willing to help me up?” Because I’ve seen women who were like, “No, sorry, I don’t have time. I can’t do it.” And then you might want to take a look at whether are you with the right organization.

 

Sarah E. Brown 21:55

Okay, very good. Very good advice! So, Carol, tell people where they can find you and also mention how they can find your podcast.

 

Carol Schultz 22:04

Right. So, they can find me at carol@verticalelevation.com. You know, they can find me through my website, verticalelevation.com. My podcast is on all the streaming services, Authentically Successful. I also have a link to it on my website at Vertical Elevation, up at the top, so it’s easy to find that way, as well. You can listen to it on the website or on any of the streaming services.

 

Sarah E. Brown 22:24

Great, Carol-

 

Carol Schultz 22:25

We also have a YouTube channel and, you know, Twitter and LinkedIn, of course.

 

Sarah E. Brown 22:30

Carol, thank you so much for being with me today!

 

Carol Schultz 22:32

Now, Sarah, it was really a pleasure. I appreciate you having me!

 

Sarah E. Brown 22:35

Thanks for listening to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. If you like what you are hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to www.sarahebrown.com. You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes and learn more about our podcast guests, read my blog, browse through the books or contact us for a chat. Goodbye for now!

Sarah Brown
Sarah Brown

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