Could your communication habits and preferences be holding you back from achieving personal growth, forming better relationships, or becoming an effective leader?
Michelle Gladieux, author of Communicate with Courage: Taking Risks to Overcome the Four Hidden Challenges, and is President of Gladieux Consulting. She facilitates seminars and does executive coaching to help diverse industries, governments, non-profits, and academia on communication and leadership topics around the United States. With 18 years of collegiate teaching experience in her home state of Indiana, Michelle’s expertise and insight are invaluable in helping you reach your goals and live an empowered life.
In this episode, Michelle dives deep into understanding our hidden communication challenges and equips us with the tools needed to overcome them and become better leaders. She stresses the importance of striking a healthy balance between giving ourselves ‘self-affirming’ and ‘others-affirming’ feedback in order to grow and develop.
What you will learn from this episode:
- Discover the four hidden communication challenges and learn how to overcome them to become a better leader.
- Uncover the keys to success in communication and understand how to strike the right balance between ‘self-affirming’ and ‘others affirming’ feedback.
- Equip yourself with the tools to navigate the complexities of communication and grow as a leader.
“It’s small changes, net big results in communication.” – Michelle Gladieux
Valuable Free Resource:
- Get your one-page FREE downloadable form called the Feedback Challenge: https://gladieuxconsulting.com/resdl/GC_Feedback_Challenge_
02:26 – Who Michelle serves and the problem she helps them solve:
04:18 – One conversation with her mom before she died that became a big influence for writing the book ‘Communicate with Courage’
05:43 – Mistakes her client makes before consulting with her: They think big communication improvements require big change. And that’s not true.
07:39 – Understanding the four obstacles we face in communication
12:23 – How do you work on the communication challenge you’re facing?
13:14 – Why are these communication struggles we face are said to be hidden?
14:42 – Michelle suggests another best way to work on your communication challenges
19:34 – Why you need to have a good balance of being ‘self-affirmed’ and ‘others affirmed’ when getting feedback
21:1 9 – What does it mean to show up and be a good communicator with ‘full body, full mind, and full heart effort’
23:04 – What do we say to ourselves versus a friend when we mess up?
24:38 – More differences in human personality than there are in gender with regard to communication 26:31 – Michelle’s Valuable Free Resource: http://www.gladieuxconsulting.com/
27:50 – Inspiring words from Michelle
“It’s that internal voice, that self-talk that sometimes creates a pessimistic mindset around communication.” – Michelle Gladieux
“For folks who have more challenges with communication, they could be facing all four at once, the best thing to do is pick one to work on and take baby steps. Try to do something just a little different each day as a communicator.” – Michelle Gladieux
“We might not want to see some of these hidden challenges because it can be hard to accept the weaker parts of ourselves and really look at them and work on them. And it can be hard to get feedback.” – Michelle Gladieux
“We summon our courage when we feel afraid of something that’s going to hurt. Only we can summon our courage, and we look for one little thing to take away from it.” – Michelle Gladieux
Ways to Connect with Michelle Gladieux:
- Website: https://gladieuxconsulting.com/
Ways to Connect with Sarah E. Brown:
- Website: https://www.sarahebrown.com
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/knowguides
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahebrownphd
- To speak with her: bookachatwithsarahebrown.com
Full Episode Transcript:
Michelle Gladieux 00:00
I’d like to tell people, just please try, and if it’s a flop, ‘Hey, okay, it’s a flop this time.’ But at some percentage of taking a shot as a communicator to get in the game, you’re going to have some more wins when you’re not rationalizing the negative.
Sarah E. Brown 00:43
My guest today is Michelle Gladieux . She is the author of Communicate With Courage: Taking Risks to Overcome the Four Hidden Challenges. And she’s also president of Gladieux Consulting, a Midwest-based team known for top-notch design and presentation of seminars in communication and leadership topics around the US. She provides executive coaching and facilitates strategic planning for clients in diverse industries, in governments, at nonprofits, and in academia. She has 18 years of collegiate teaching experience at three universities in her home state of Indiana. She accepted her first adjunct faculty position at age 23. She’s worked as a corporate human resources and training director in the cold storage, robotics and construction industries, and enjoys visiting conferences as a keynote speaker and workshop presenter. Michelle has mentored thousands of people, and her positive effect on those she advises is evident even after just one interaction. And we’re looking for that for today. Her clients and friends are delighted she’s finally documented some of her best tips in the book, Communicate with Courage, which is what we’re going to talk about today. Michelle, welcome. Glad to have you!
Michelle Gladieux 02:14
Hi! Hey, thanks for having me.
Sarah E. Brown 02:16
Tell us a little bit more about your business and who you’re serving and the kinds of problems these executives have when they come to work with you.
Michelle Gladieux 02:26
Sure. I think these executives and employees at all levels really have the same kind of problems that you and I have and that your listeners have. We’re either struggling a bit in our sending of messages, or we might be struggling in receiving them fully. And we want to be heard and we want to be respected for what we have to say. And at the same time, most of us could work on respecting others’ points of view, as well. So it’s, it’s just been a lifelong passion. And when I say lifelong, I mean like I was a kid in preschool that was going up and whispering into my teacher’s ears according to a note I found home to my parents about how I thought they might want to try a different strategy with David, who was having some trouble in the classroom. And I was observing how the teacher interacted and thought, that’s not going to work with David. Don’t you see his soul? Or don’t you see his heart? Or don’t you see the tells that are coming off of his body language? You know, what he might need is for you to be a little more assertive or a little less aggressive. So I just love that study of human communication. And I went to Purdue University in West Lafayette and was very lucky to meet a counselor, a guidance counselor who sort of said, ‘Well, you say you like business and you like psychology.’ And I said, ‘Yes, I don’t think I can choose one, but I don’t want to be a clinical psychologist. That’s not my calling. What shall I do?’ And he said, ‘I think you could try organizational psychology.’ And I was 17 then and said, ‘What is that? Sounds good. What is that?’ And that was a done deal. As soon as I got into that coursework, studying humans in the workplace and how they can be more successful and happier as communicators, I was hooked.
Sarah E. Brown 04:11
There you go. Well, it goes back to childhood then. What did your teacher do with your advice?
Michelle Gladieux 04:18
I think the most important… I don’t know what she did. I remember what my mom did. She read the note and said, ‘You know, it might be good for you to start thinking about when you grow up and have a job. I wonder if you’ll want to help people with communication.’ She was a guiding force in my ear as long as I had her in my life, and she lived until I was 19, and we lost her to cancer. But she had me very well prepared for the fact that she was an older mom. She had me when she was about 50, 49, and she was telling me as I was growing, I might not be around on the planet as long as your friend’s parents, but I’m going to try to share with you a lot of my observations about humans so you can use it later. And of course, still, you know, and so the book is dedicated to her, Communicate with Courage is dedicated to her. And you’ll find the pro moves, as I call them, little stretches we can make as communicators and little savvy strategic ways to improve communication. They’re all throughout the book, but just like with you, Sarah, I’m sure you’re standing on a lot of other women’s shoulders as well.
Sarah E. Brown 05:24
Michelle Gladieux 05:25
Standing on others’ shoulders.
Sarah E. Brown 05:27
Great. Two great stories and it leads into my next one because whether that teacher took your advice or not, I would be interested in knowing what your… What are the biggest mistakes your clients make before they start working with you?
Michelle Gladieux 05:43
Well, great question. Sometimes they work with me because their boss says, ‘Hey, we’re going to do some professional development this year and have some workshops and some one-on-one coaching or personality assessment.’ And I know you believe in the power of personality assessments.
Sarah E. Brown 05:56
I do. I do.
Michelle Gladieux 05:57
Isn’t it a wonderful quick way to understand oneself?
Sarah E. Brown 06:01
Michelle Gladieux 06:02
So that they come seeking us out or we’re sought out by their employer, perhaps. And the biggest mistake I think clients make is they think big communication improvements require big change. And that’s not true. There’s sometimes some very low hanging fruit that we can pick and use. We might get some feedback from another and then be able to spin that into a change that changes our lives. For me, it is working on slowing my role and listening fully, especially when I disagree. And I bet half of your listeners and fans are already good at that. Some of them are not as good at it. It definitely comes back to personality. And I’m an extrovert, highly expressive, pretty assertive. So when I hear something that sounds incorrect or it trips my trigger, let’s say, it’s hard for me to remain gathered and connected and calm while I let the other person finish. But I’ve gotten a lot better at it in the last 10 to 20 years of working on it. So it’s small changes, net big results in communication.
Sarah E. Brown 07:12
Hmm. The big challenge I had in that area was not preparing my argument while the other one was making his or hers. Right. Usually his. Yep. Right. Yeah. So, that’s a good pivot to your book and talking about the challenges that we face. And you’re structuring your book around four challenges that many of us face in communications. Would you mind telling my listeners, you know, kind of recap what they are?
Michelle Gladieux 07:39
Sure. I’d love to. And these are sneaky obstacles that are sometimes just outside of our peripheral vision. They’re in our peripheral vision or, or possibly a blind spot. They are hiding, defining, rationalizing, and settling. I’ll give you a quick operational definition of each. When we’re hiding, we feel afraid of somebody seeing our supposed or real weakness. And so we kind of put a smoke screen up rather than just owning our humanity and our imperfection. What we could do about hiding, we could get clear on our values and maybe decide to engage when communication involves our values and show up authentically. Defining to be right, is putting too much stock into what we assume, or being quick to judge or think maybe that others have had the same experience or live in the same world that we do. They might live in the same world physically, but they’ve had a very different upbringing, experiences and values.
So to overcome, defining to be right, we could celebrate when we have the guts to accept that our hunch was wrong. And I don’t coach many people at the very top of some of the powerful organizations we deal with that are likely to say, ‘Oh, oops, I really messed that up, didn’t I?’ It seems like the more power people gain, the less likely they are to say that. And as soon as I hear a leader say something like that, I’m a lifelong fan because I relax and know that I don’t have to be perfect. ‘Oh, good. You’re not perfect either.’ The third hidden challenge is rationalizing the negative. And this is talking yourself out of an important risk or taking a chance as a communicator, maybe to say a hard thing or face a conflict or offer an apology, something scary, but potentially rewarding. We don’t do it because we tell ourselves it’s not going to work anyway. They’re not going to care. I’m not going to say it right. I’m not qualified to ask. My opinion doesn’t matter. And it’s that internal voice, that self-talk that sometimes creates a pessimistic mindset around communication. Whereas I, I’d like to tell people, just please try and if it’s a flop, ‘Hey, okay, it’s a flop this time.’ But at some percentage of taking a shot as a communicator to get in the game, you’re going to have some more wins when you’re not rationalizing the negative. The fourth challenge that we have that we can try to overcome is settling for good enough. And that is stopping at a point that is satisfying or enough instead of striving towards an interaction that might have a more rewarding outcome if we put one or two or five or 10% more energy and effort into it. And I lead a team of 10 based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and one of my coworkers said, ‘Well, gimme an example.’ I said, ‘Sure.’ You know, when we do our quarterly Zoom happy hours, and the 10 of us get together and look at each other like the Brady Bunch on the screen, and I’ll say, ‘Who would like to go first in updating us on their projects? Nine people have the opportunity to answer that question and say,’I’ll go.’ So this would be about making sure that once in a while throughout the year, you’re the person who says, ‘I’d love to start’, even if you’re not feeling like starting. And that colleague said, ‘Oh, well, I do that sometimes.’ And I said, ‘I do that sometimes too.’ I do all four of these things. Or I engage in these four obstacles they get in my way throughout a given day, three or four of them per day probably. So Sarah, it’s been interesting some interviewers have asked me, what’s the most common hidden challenge that people face?
And I have to say, I don’t know. I think it, first of all, this book was just published a few months ago, and this is a new framework for me to teach from, kind of a conglomeration of 25 years of teaching and learning about communication. But it really is dependent upon the person and it changes throughout their life. At 21, you know, you might be hiding and then you might find your voice and try it out and get knocked down, and then you start rationalizing that it’s not worth trying. So I think we come and go and challenges ebb and flow. So that’s why I think it’s important for listeners and readers to check out all four. It’s a short, short book. I make it sound long. It’s really short.
Sarah E. Brown 12:05
It’s very readable. Good. I was going to ask the question about whether or not we would manifest more than one at a given point in time, if generally one is predominant, you’re dealing with one challenge over another, I just, how do you rank them? Or do you just…
Michelle Gladieux 12:23
Oh, I think you and I could probably get together and discuss that for a few hours and come up with an answer. That’s a tough one to answer, I guess. I don’t rank them. And I think that for folks who have more challenges with communication, they could be facing, you know, all four at once. And then the best thing to do is pick one to work on and take baby steps, baby steps. And that’s why I put the exercise at the end of each chapter and pro moves throughout so we can just nibble a little and then go, you know, go have our dinner with friends or go to work the next morning and try to do something just a little different that day as a communicator.
Sarah E. Brown 13:03
And that goes back to your biggest mistake of thinking that you got to make huge, big changes all at once. I get that. Why do you say that they’re hidden? Are they always hidden?
Michelle Gladieux 13:14
I think they’re hidden because we don’t want to see them in ourselves because we have that very useful thing called an ego. But if we really want to look closely and say, ‘Gosh, I guess I am not living up to my potential. I could have made a change. I complained about my workplace culture instead of trying to take positive action.’ I mean, there’s a little section in the book where I was, my significant other really honked me off. He hurt my feelings and made me mad and told me, ‘You’re just complaining a lot lately.’ We had kind of a big fight about it. Oh, you know, I’m no, I’m, well, I’ve got a lot to do, a lot on my plate, A lot more than you. Just coming from the small self, you know, from the scared part of me.
And then I went to a coaching meeting the same day and listened to one of my coaching clients tell me how difficult it was and this person’s managing team of nurses, how difficult it was, hearing all of the complaints all of the time, and that it was beginning to really drag down her energy. And I said to her, ‘Isn’t that the worst? I just hate to work with complainers.’ Like, ‘Oh my God.’ Yes, I heard myself, yes, I heard myself. And then I thought, ‘Ooh, thank you, fate, universe, divine power, whatever that is. That just gave me a very quick lesson in, it’s tiring to hear someone complain. So I think we might not want to see some of these hidden challenges because it can be hard to accept the weaker parts of ourselves and really look at them and work on them. And it can be hard to get feedback.
I mean, how do you know which of the four you’re engaging in? Of course, the book takes people through that so they can identify those without involving others. But another great way is to ask a couple people, you trust this very simple question, ‘Hey, I have an assignment from a podcast I’m listening to with Dr. Sarah Brown. And the assignment from the guest was, ask a few people you trust, ‘Hey, what’s something you like about my communication and what’s something you think I could do better?’ And you could give them time. Let me know sometime this week. You could send it as an email. We have a wonderful little one page downloadable form on our website at gladieuxconsulting.com called the feedback challenge, which they could actually email or print and hand to people in a little space for the person to write a positive and also a piece of constructive criticism.
And then you would receive that either informally through conversation, you know, your family might have an answer right now, your coworker might want some time to think on it. And then you can take what you hear and stick to the five-word script, ‘Thanks. I’ll think about that.’ Say no more before we start to defend, or, ‘Oh, well, that’s not true. Hang on.’ So can you imagine if I could have said to my significant other when he said, ‘You’re complaining a lot lately, it’s getting old.’ I could have said, ‘Thanks, I’ll think about that, and gone and thought about it, and then I would’ve thought that’s true.’ And then I might’ve apologized and done something positive like, ‘Oh, I don’t know, take a walk.’ Or it’s time for me to do something for myself. Because when I start complaining, it’s usually because I’m not treating myself right.
Hi, this is Sarah Brown again, the host of the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. I hope you are enjoying this episode and gaining some tips and inspiration on how you can be happier, more successful, and experience less stress at work. If you would like to learn more about how you can take control of your career and do it your way, visit sarahebrown.com. There you will be able to download a free chapter from my book, ‘Let Your Personality Be Your Career Guide.’ It contains information and exercises on how you can identify your unique interests, strengths, and needs, and translate that into career goals that are just right for you. Now, back to this informative episode.
Sarah E. Brown 17:26
Hmm. So those are some ideas. Get feedback. So, one of the things I tell all of the women in my training programs about getting feedback is never, ever react to feedback in the moment that you get the feedback, whether it’s positive or negative, just say, thank you very much, I’ll be back to you and go process it with somebody else. Because you don’t know at that moment how to interpret it based on whether it’s important to you. That’s number one. Whether it aligns with who you are and you haven’t had any opportunity to think about what you would do differently in the future, you’re just going to make a mess of it if you just react. So I get that 100%.
Michelle Gladieux 18:07
The only thing I would add is, if they’re extremely introverted, they might want to go think about that alone. Of course. So with a guide or alone, it’s always easier to be grateful for feedback that’s given because the person wants the best for us. But feedback, this popular phrase that’s been around for a decade or more, is sometimes also used by a mean-spirited person to try to hurt another. ‘I have some feedback for you about your podcast, Sarah, you know, can I get some time this week?’ And I would never do that, I would hope. But there, that’s a way that some people try to gain power over others rather than give power to. In which case, what do we do, we summon our courage when we feel afraid of something that’s going to hurt.
We summon our courage. Only we can summon our courage, and we look for one little thing to take away from it. Even if that thing is, I don’t think that’s true, and I don’t think that person wants my best, wants the best for me. So I think I might limit my interaction that can sometimes be necessary, but, I’d say most people when giving feedback, they’re out on a limb. They’re taking a risk that you might get mad at them, and they usually want the best for us.
Sarah E. Brown 19:19
Do you have any perspective on when you’re diagnosing my words, not yours. Your communication challenges, how much of it you can diagnose yourself versus how much of it you really need to get feedback on?
Michelle Gladieux 19:35
Hmm. I would say much like where we get our definition of success comes from both inside ourselves and outside from others. I think a nice balance is a good thing in the way that I use personality assessment. One of the indicators we see is how self affirmed or other affirmed a person is, and those who are highly other affirmed, to be quite frank, worry too much about what other people think of them and how they communicate. And those who are highly self-affirmed, sometimes I have to talk them into getting feedback from others. In fact, one person just said recently, I said, you know, in this goal plan for the month of February coming up, I think that we need to put some goals in here that allow you to ask others their opinions. And he said, why would I do that?
And I looked down at the personality assessment and said, right, right. You’re 90% self-affirmed, why would you do that? Here’s why. Do you have any issues with scrap in this factory?
‘Oh, yes. Way too high.’ I said, ‘Having trouble retaining employees like most places around the United States.’ ‘Definitely, yes.’ I said, these folks can sense and have already observed that you’re not that interested in their opinion, and it’s impacting your bottom line. So for no other reason, if you’re not interested in how you can be a better leader, be interested in how your business can run better. And he said, ‘Okay, all right.’ Put some of those goals in there. So I think a balance would be good. Let’s look within ourselves, what do we feel we need to do to grow? And let’s ask some others and balance it out.
Sarah E. Brown 20:59
Okay. Balance is a good one. And then you talk about approaching all of this from a quote, ‘Full body, full mind, and full heart effort.’ Expound on that a little bit and why all of that’s required and why I have to have this vision to do anything.
Michelle Gladieux 21:19
I love it. Well, I, boy, I don’t sound like somebody who expects a lot. Do I? I want to qualify that and say, ‘Great communication.’ When you want to show up and be great as a communicator, let’s say you’re delivering a eulogy for a loved one. Here’s a time to try for great, or you’re interviewing and it’s the dream job that you’re so excited that you got an interview for. Let’s aim for great. Full body, so we’re going to make sure that physically we’re prepared, so maybe rested and hydrated, and we’re aware of what our eyes and our face and our shoulders are telling people. How we’re standing, how we’re presenting ourselves, full body. Full mind, we’ve got a guide, we’ve done some research, we’ve done some reading, we’ve asked for feedback. Our mind is engaged because we’re thinking about strategically, what does my best look like for this interview, this wedding toast, this eulogy.
And so we have body, mind, and then heart. Your heart has to be in it, or you fall into rationalizing the negative. And we’ll quickly talk yourself out of whether it matters or not. If you give an A-plus performance in quotes in this communication opportunity. So it’s about bringing the very best you have to offer, which will have weaknesses included. But you know, you’re trying your best. That’s all anyone can ask from any of us. And women, you know, women carry the world on their shoulders. Women do much of the emotional labor and communication. They do a lot of the strategy around communication. They’re often not recognized or thanked, not as often as they should be. And so we can start to get down on ourselves. A good place to check out how we’re treating ourselves in communication is to take a look at our self-talk.
What do I say to myself when I mess up? You know, I was in the wrong place for this interview a few days ago on the wrong day. And honestly, Sarah, I respect you so much. And it bummed me out. I thought.. first line of thought was, what is she going to think of me? She’s going to think I’m, you know, I, I’ll just spare your listeners. But it wasn’t kind. And then I caught it. And that’s where the joy and the win is. I caught it. And if I would’ve written it out, what I was saying, I would never say those things to my friend. I would tell her, everybody makes mistakes. Be there early for the interview when it starts on Monday and be well prepared, it will be fine. She doesn’t expect guests to be perfect. To whoever is my friend, I speak differently. To myself, man, I can be really hard on that poor lady. You see that all the time,I know.
Sarah E. Brown 23:58
I see that all the time. And you so clearly articulated some of the differences in communications between men and women in what you were saying. But it leads me to another question is, do women tend to have different challenges? Do some show up more for women than others? Or is it, in your experience, has it been pretty much across the board? Are men and women pretty much the same?
Michelle Gladieux 24:28
Well, I think there are more differences in human personality than there are in gender, in communication. However, I think because men have traditionally held most of the power in organizations that there can be a scarcity mentality that’s absolutely understandable in women such as, well, they already have a few women on that board. There’s not, they’re not going to want to let another one in. I’ve helped a lot of women go for director or partner level positions in law offices and accounting firms. When they told me they didn’t believe they would have a shot, because so far it’s all men at that table in that circle of power. And so we begin to strategize then so that they can’t be overlooked.
Sarah E. Brown 25:11
Michelle Gladieux 25:12
Do you know what I mean? So, yes. So, I think women might not believe opportunities are as available as they are. And certainly it seems like every decade more opportunities become available, again, standing on the shoulders of women who came before. I mean, my mom told me stories about, she’s a very good writer and very good with typing and taking dictation, which was important in the fifties, and transcribing. And she would write for the CEO of a big company here in Indiana, write his speeches and all of that. And she said, but the hard part of my job was I would be sitting across the table from him and he would come and sit down right next to me and want to put his hand on my leg and I would just move and then try to keep the meeting going. And she said, you don’t deal with that, Michelle. You’re my direct descendant. And you haven’t dealt with that as much as women who came before you. I think we’ve all dealt with some sexism and many of us have dealt with harassment, but times, they are changing. And we all have to find our courage to make sure that people are included for their talents in the workforce.
Sarah E. Brown 26:16
So Michelle, yes. One of the things readers can do to learn more about this topic is to get your book Communicate with Courage. Do you have any other resources, free resources you might be able to point them to, to help them understand this challenge better?
Michelle Gladieux 26:31
I would be delighted if people would visit our website and sign up for the quarterly e-newsletter that I create. It’s got some levity. It’s always meant to lift up people’s days. And I include a short music video and then of course, free resources for communicating better. And you can do that at gladieuxconsulting.com. And I’m going to spell that because I don’t, well, I know what possessed me. I was going to say, I don’t know what possessed me to name my company a difficult French name to spell. It was an honor of my parents who are now deceased, but taught me a lot about communication. So we’re at gladieux, which is G L A D I E U X, like x-ray consulting.com. And then as soon as you get to the website, you’ll see us asking if you’d like to sign up for the quarterly e-newsletter. It’s called Breakdown. And I named it after Tom Petty in the Heartbreaker song.
Sarah E. Brown 27:24
Michelle Gladieux 27:25
Because I’m a huge rock and roll fan. And I just, just really looked up to Tom Petty as a communicator. He was very courageous. He stood for his values, very creative. So we call it Breakdown.
Sarah E. Brown 27:38
Well, thank you. And the website will also be in the show notes. So Michelle, is there any question that I should have asked you that would help our audience understand this problem fuller?
Michelle Gladieux 27:50
I’ll throw this out. The word celebrate just came to my mind. So I want to say to our listeners that as they try to overcome some of these hidden challenges and they stick their nose out or their neck out and they do something that feels a little scary, I want to challenge them to reward themselves the same day and not wait for someone else to reward them. Now, for me, that might be downloading a music album or getting a nice coffee drink that I might not normally splurge on, that kind of thing. But we need to be right there for ourselves, celebrating ourselves, win, lose, or something in between. Doesn’t matter. When we take the chance as a communicator to stick our necks out and grow a bit, we deserve a celebration and everybody’s so busy, it’s probably going to be ourselves that needs to celebrate ourselves.
Sarah E. Brown 28:36
Terrific. And for those of you listening today, Communicate With Courage is a very readable book. I commend it to you. Michelle, thank you so much for being with me today.
Michelle Gladieux 28:47
My pleasure. It was an honor to get to know you a little better.
Sarah E. Brown 28:50
Thanks for listening to the K T S Success Factor Podcast for Women. If you like what you are hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to www.sarahebrown.com. You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes, and learn more about our podcast guest, read my blog, browse through the books, or contact us for a chat. Goodbye for now!