Workplace bullying isn’t just uncomfortable—it’s career sabotage. If you’ve ever felt targeted, diminished, or singled out by a colleague or boss, you’re not alone. The harsh reality? There’s likely at least one bully in every office, and they’ve honed their behavior over decades.

Vicky Oliver is a leading career development expert and the multi-bestselling author of five books, including Bad Bosses, Crazy Coworkers & Other Office Idiots (Sourcebooks 2008) and 301 Smart Answers to Tough Interview Questions (Sourcebooks 2005), named in the top 10 list of “Best Books for HR Interview Prep.” She is a sought-after speaker and seminar presenter and a popular media source, having made over 901 appearances in broadcast, print and online outlets.

In this episode, Vicky shares her insights on workplace bullying, drawing from her extensive research and personal experiences. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing bullying behavior and offers practical strategies for women to address it effectively.

What you will learn from this episode:

  • Understand the definition of bullying in the workplace and how it can manifest in various forms.
  • Learn the prevalence of bullying and why it often goes unaddressed in organizations.
  • Discover actionable strategies for women to confront bullying behavior and advocate for themselves.

“If you feel that you are being teased, called out in any way, then you are being bullied.”

– Vicky Oliver

Valuable Free Resource: 

Topics Covered:

00:00 – Introduction to the topic of bullying in the workplace and the ingrained nature of bullying behavior.

02:23 – Vicky Oliver discusses her book and how she became interested in the topic of bullying.

02:57 – Definition of bullying and the subjective nature of what constitutes bullying.

06:02 – Insights on why bullies often remain in power and how they can be skilled at their jobs.

09:11 – Strategies for women to address bullying behavior they are experiencing.

10:36 – Importance of documenting bullying incidents and approaching the bully directly.

14:07 – Steps to take if direct communication with the bully does not work.

19:09 – Mistakes to avoid when dealing with bullies, including emotional reactions.

20:43 – Advice for bystanders on how to support colleagues who are being bullied.

23:28 – Discussion on why bullies often get away with their behavior and the dynamics of power in the workplace.

25:44 – Final thoughts on modeling good behavior and building a positive reputation in the workplace.

Key Takeaways:

On Bully Behavior Patterns: “It isn’t that somebody like arrives at an office and then they start bullying people. No, it’s an ingrained behavior. Maybe it’s been going on for 30 years with that person.” – Vicky Oliver

On Changing People: “I also feel that it’s very difficult to change people. Somebody has to want to change.” – Vicky Oliver

On Documentation: “There’s a difference between somebody teasing you once and then a pattern of abuse. What you’re trying to get in your list is showing a pattern.” – Vicky Oliver

On Workplace Dynamics: “Be the go to person who solves the problems and calms the waters. And as more and more people respect you, your reputation will rise.” – Vicky Oliver

On Recognizing Bully Power: “Recognize that you’re up against something that’s quite dangerous and that they know how to survive.” – Vicky Oliver

Ways to Connect with Vicky Oliver:

Ways to Connect with Sarah E. Brown:

 

Full Episode Transcript:

AI helped us put this together, so if you see any weird grammar or missed words—just know we nailed it during the actual chat.

Vicky Oliver  00:00

It isn’t that somebody like arrives at an office and then they start bullying people. No, it’s an ingrained behavior. Maybe it’s been going on for 30 years with that person. I also feel that it’s very difficult to change people. Somebody has to want to change. And maybe if a bully is called out often enough, that person will want to change. But I think it’s unrealistic to think that you necessarily can change a person’s behavior.

Sarah E. Brown 00:35

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women, where we talk about challenges senior female leaders face in being happy and successful at work. I’m your host, Dr. Sarah E. Brown. My guest today is Vicky Oliver. She is a leading career development expert and the multi-best-selling author of five books, including Bad Bosses, Crazy Coworkers, and Other Office Idiots, and also 301 Smart Answers to Tough Interview Questions, which is on my bookshelf. So if you don’t have that, go get it. She’s been named in the top 10 list of best books for HR interview prep. She’s a sought-after speaker and seminar presenter and a popular media source, having made over 901 appearances in broadcast, print, and online outlets. And I’ll have her website listed a little bit later in the show notes, but welcome, Vicky.

Vicky Oliver  01:46

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sarah E. Brown 01:50

And just as a reminder to my audience, Vicky is a repeat guest. She was here probably almost two years ago. We talked about tips for succeeding in the gig economy. And she talked about skills development that are important for making a success in the gig economy. So I highly recommend that, but that’s not what we’re going to talk about today. We’re gonna talk about bullying. So just as a way to get started, how did you get interested in the topic of bullying?

Vicky Oliver 02:23

Well, I wrote a book, Bad Bosses, Crazy Coworkers and Other Office Idiots. And I looked at it as a thesaurus of terrible personalities that one encounters. And one of those personalities is the bully. And so, I did a lot of research. I asked a lot of people about their own experiences. And of course, I have my own experiences as well with it. I think it’s very prevalent.

Sarah E. Brown 02:52

Okay, well, we’re going to get into that, but how would you define bullying?

Vicky Oliver 02:57

Well, I feel that if someone is making fun of you, if they’re calling you out, if they’re teasing you as you walk down the hallway. If they’re giving you the vibe that they’re bullying you, then they are bullying you. That’s the thing. Like one of the things I discovered about bullying is it depends on someone’s interpretation. Like maybe I am in an office and someone’s teasing me and I like it and it’s fine, right? But somebody else, it makes them shudder every time the boss walks by and calls them out. And so, bullying is a highly subjective thing. But if you feel that you are being teased, called out in any way, then you are being bullied. So it kind of depends on your personality type and your boss’s personality type, how much it bothers you. But if it bothers you, then you’re being bullied.

Sarah E. Brown 03:57

Ok, I like that. So, one of the things that I do in my work is I work with a personality assessment called the Birkman Method. And what is inherent in that is understanding what your needs are. And I say it is your responsibility to get your needs met, which means if there are things in the environment that aren’t working for you, it’s your responsibility to educate people on why it doesn’t work for you and to find a way to make it work for you, and for the other person. I mean, you can’t do it just for you, but it is your responsibility to get on with that. And I take from what you’re saying that it is perfectly appropriate for any individual woman to decide what constitutes bullying for her.

Vicky Oliver 04:44

Correct.

Sarah E. Brown 04:45

Good. Okay. So, assuming that women are doing that, how prevalent is it that women are experiencing bad behavior that just doesn’t meet their needs? Is it a rampant problem?

Vicky Oliver 05:01

I would say there’s probably at least one bully in every office. All right. And I mean, we can talk if you want about how the bully came to power, but a lot of times a bully is a middle managing type of person. A person rose to power partly because they bullied other people and put them down enough so that those people didn’t rise. It’s a skill set, okay? It’s obnoxious, it’s abhorrent, but it’s still sort of a skill set the bully has. So I would say there’s always one at least one in every office which is also why I say learn how to deal with the bully in your office. I because there’s somebody else that’s a bully in a different office. So if you just leave to escape, it doesn’t really help. You have to learn how to address the bully and conquer that behavior. Or at the very least, make that person target someone else.

Sarah E. Brown 06:02

Okay, so getting beyond just basic needs satisfaction and creating an environment that works for you. I think what you’re suggesting is there’s going to be at least one example in almost every workplace of people that are exhibiting bad behavior that almost everybody would define as bad behavior.

Vicky Oliver 06:23

Yeah, I think so. And one question might be, well, how come human resources doesn’t get rid of the person? Okay. The reason might be because that bully is really talented at something. Maybe it’s very organized. Maybe they get their work done. I mean, there’s a reason that the person rose to power and that’s why nobody gets rid of the person, but it’s very commonplace. So why do bullies bully? Well, I feel that many times it goes back to something that happened in their childhood. I feel that bullies in the office often bullied people in the playground. And I think that there’s also generational abuse, where a bully grows up being abused maybe by his or her parents, and then that behavior becomes internalized, and then that person feels powerful when they bully other people. So it’s ingrained. It isn’t that somebody like arrives at an office and then they start bullying people. So, it’s ingrained behavior. Maybe it’s been going on for 30 years with that person. I also feel that it’s very difficult to change people. Somebody has to want to change. And maybe if a bully is called out often enough, that person will want to change. But I think it’s unrealistic to think that you necessarily can change a person’s behavior. Right? You can change your own behavior if you want to, but I don’t think it’s possible to necessarily make a bully stop bullying.

Sarah E. Brown 07:58

Ok, so that’s consistent with the message I’m delivering as well as what you can’t control others, but you can’t control yourself. So you can make requests. You may not get your request satisfied and you’re going to have to decide what to do about that. But I think in summary of what you’re saying is, is it’s partially ingrained behavior, but it’s also been honed over many years. So it’s almost like it’s been a skill that’s been developed as well. It’s a skill. It’s a skill.

Vicky Oliver 08:24

And the problem is, if the bully targets you, Right? It’s very off-putting and you don’t, you know, it feels terrible. It feels terrible to be singled out and bullied. Is this only a male phenomenon or do females ever bully? I feel that females bully all the time. I don’t think it’s just a male phenomenon, but I will say that perhaps women may feel worse when they are the targets than men. And it maybe goes back to locker talk and teams. I’m not sure why, but I feel like bullies come in every shape and size, every gender. But I think that sometimes women feel worse when they’re the targets.

Sarah E. Brown 09:11

Got it. Okay, so what can the women, what are strategies that the women that are listening to this today can take to address this kind of behavior that they’re feeling, I don’t want to use the word victim, they’re feeling the recipient of? Yeah, they’re targeted. They’re being targeted, that’s a better word, yeah. So what are strategies if you’re feeling targeted by a bully?

Vicky Oliver 09:36

Well, I think first off, it always helps to write things down. It helps to keep a list of times that you felt that you were bullied and what the person said and your reaction, just as proof points. in case somebody later needs to see them. I just think it’s a good idea to keep like a list. Don’t keep it on your desk at the office. Keep it at home. Write down your proof points of when it happened. I would write down like the date, what happened, what was said, what you said, how you felt, right? Just keep a list. And I would say, wait for a calm time. Don’t react when the bully starts bullying you. That’s the worst time. Don’t lash out. Don’t cry. Don’t scream. Just take a deep breath and say to yourself, I’m going to find a quiet time to talk about this. And then I would say, figure out a good time. And then I would go in and I would ask the bully for a private time to have a discussion. And then I would call it out, like tell the person like, I feel like you are bullying me. It makes me very uncomfortable when you call me out in the hallway and say teasing things very loudly or whatever the problem is. I felt it on this date, this date and this date, and I’m not going to stand for being bullied. I just don’t think it’s fair to me to do it. And, you know, be calm about it, but firm. I would just say you have to call out the behavior to the actual person. That would be my first recourse. Go to the person and see if that person will stop bullying you. I would do that before anything else because a lot of times it might stop the behavior. I mean, it won’t stop the bully from bullying other people, but it might stop the bullying from targeting you. Okay.

Sarah E. Brown 11:37

So are there any times where it might not be safe for a woman to go alone to do this? 

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Vicky Oliver 12:45

I think in an office context, it’s probably safe. But I would keep your voice level. I would be professional. I would, you know, polite to the person. I think it’s probably usually safe. Yes. Now, is it politically safe is another question because if a bully feels like, wow, this person’s just giving me problems. Why is she doing this? You know, I don’t need this in my life. There could be, you have to prepare yourself that there could be some sort of backlash to it. But I still suggest trying to talk to the person directly first,but writing your list to show that it’s a pattern. There’s a difference between somebody teasing you once and then a pattern of abuse. What you’re trying to get in your list is showing a pattern. Okay. Got it.

Sarah E. Brown 13:42

Now let’s suppose that that doesn’t work.

Vicky Oliver 13:44

Yeah, it doesn’t work. Well, right. It may not work. It may not work for so many reasons because the bully may not perceive that he or she is a bully. He may or she may deny it. It could bring up childhood traumas for that person. You know, there’s lots of reasons why it just may not work. All right. I would still suggest trying it twice before you give up on the idea. I would try it a second time, like let it go. Keep your list, go in a second time, you know, try to show the person that you’re serious about trying to stop the behavior, at least towards you. Right. Still doesn’t work. Then I would begin like talking to other people within the organization. And I would try to usually there’s a pattern. And if there’s a pattern, it’s with other people as well. And I would try to gently find allies and try to discuss it with them. Notice that I’m not bringing up human resources yet. Yes. I noticed that. Yeah, I would wait to do that. How long do you wait? Well, I would say if you feel like you’ve been bullied for six months, then I might go to human resources, by which point you will have a long list of examples, dates, what was said, what you replied, your attempt to talk to the person, other people who agree with you, and you’ll have what is like a composite of the problem to bring to human resources. But I just want to say, when you go to human resources, like the issue is, Well, one, a lot of times the human resources person is not gifted at that job. Like they’re not really a mediator. Two, it will go on your record as well. It won’t just be you versus your boss or whoever it is that is the problem. It will be put on your record too. So I think that before you take that step, you need to try to ameliorate the situation in other ways first. I just think it’s safer for you and better to do it that way.

Sarah E. Brown 16:00

What about going one step above a person like to his or her boss?

Vicky Oliver 16:06

Right. So the issue with that is that it creates huge resentment. Like the bully says, oh God, she’s ignoring me and you’re going to my boss. And it’s exacerbating the problem, probably prickling the person to bully you more as a result of doing that. I mean, no one likes it when someone skips them and goes to their boss and complains. Nobody likes that. So it’s actually elevating the problem. My thought is to try to de-escalate the issue as much as you can rather than elevating the problem. If the situation persists, you know, if the person is just a jerk and keeps bullying you in spite of your best efforts, then you really have no choice. You have to gather your forces around you. And if you’re friendly with the person’s boss, you should mention it probably. And if you have a good relationship with your HR person, like that is the time to go there. I’m only mentioning that you have to be careful with it and have your evidence. It’s almost like a mini trial. It’ll be like a he said, she said situation, or she said, she said situation. And you have to prove that you are the reasonable person.

Sarah E. Brown 17:25

And that would be the case with HR and with the individual’s boss?

Vicky Oliver 17:29

I think so. I think so. Because you don’t want, I mean, what will happen? The boss, let’s say you go to, I’m going to use he, but believe me, it can be women as well. Let’s say you go to his boss, right? And you explain the situation and you’re rational and you explain it and you know, you have your list and you talk about it and you talk about how you tried to discuss it with him, et cetera, et cetera, right? Well, that boss, he’s not going to just sit around. He’s going to have to act. Right. Right. Maybe then he will go to HR. The problem with it is when you go to HR and you go to somebody’s boss, it goes out of your control. Right and you’re sort of delegating the problem to somebody other than you to solve it And the way that they decide to solve it you might not love the way that they want to solve it.

Sarah E. Brown 18:18

That’s the problem Okay, so the preferable path regardless is to try and work it out with the person that you deem a bully one-on-one

Vicky Oliver 18:28

One-on-one is the best thing because also if you go one-on-one with the person, there’s always the threat, the unspoken threat that you will elevate it. But once you elevate it, it’s out of your control and you may not like the way it’s resolved. That’s the problem. I mean, let’s say the bully’s been working there for 10 years. They’re not probably going to fire the person, right? They may slap his wrist or something, but they’re probably not going to fire him on one person’s thing. So that’s the problem. You want to keep it in your control.

Sarah E. Brown  19:09

So in addition to escalating too fast or going outside of your control too fast, are there other mistakes that women often make in this process or are there things that they should not do?

Vicky Oliver 19:23

Well, I think it’s really hard, but I think that they should not emote. Let’s say it’s the fifth time someone has said something to you that’s really obnoxious, you know, embracing in the hallway, right? And you want to like scream or cry out or yell out. I think that is a mistake because walls have ears. Other people are listening, you know, words go through cubicles really fast. You don’t want the situation to be talked about. You want to keep it in your domain. That’s my opinion. So every time if you cry, if you burst out, then somebody walking by, like they don’t know the whole context. You don’t want your problem with him to reverberate and become a problem that people see with you. Oh, she’s too sensitive. Oh, she can’t take a joke. These types of things that are said often about women. You don’t want that on you. So it’s hard, but Teflon, like when someone says something mean and they’re calling you out, you just have to be like, you know, grimace and bear it. That’s what I would do. Grimace and bear it.

Sarah E. Brown 20:37 

Okay. So what should I do if I see someone bullying a colleague?

Vicky Oliver 20:43

Yeah, I saw that question. It’s a tough call. It’s a very tough call because the bullying behavior will not stop unless several people complain about the same person. All right. However, it is a risk for you to help a colleague out with the situation because then you may be the next target. So you have to evaluate security, how secure is your own position in the company and how much of a squeaky wheel do you want to be. And as always, I would say you can squeak more the longer that you’ve been there, most likely. Like if you’ve been there a couple of years and people really respect you and they really like you, you can squeak. If you’ve been there a month and a half, And somebody comes up to you and says, this guy is bullying me. What do I do? To get involved in a group thing when you have no security of your own is more dangerous. So you have to evaluate the pluses and the minuses. The pluses being you can get rid of this guy or woman if enough people complain about them. And the minus being that it could reverberate badly on you. So I just, you know, I know it sounds pragmatic to say it, but be cognizant, be careful when you are dealing with a bully and realize that the person has a great degree of power that they have accumulated at this company, or they wouldn’t have gotten away with it so far. And there may be other, there may be like 10 other people that this person bullied that you don’t even know about because it happened before you arrived, right? You don’t know the whole history.

Sarah E. Brown 22:22

Should you have a conversation with the colleague that you see as the quote, victim or target? That’s your word target. It’s a better word.

Vicky Oliver

I think it’s always good to ally with people and to be sympathetic, empathetic with others. Like I wouldn’t be like, oh, don’t talk to me about it. You know, I think you can always lend an ear and you can listen well. but I wouldn’t offer solutions to the person unless you’re being, if you’re being targeted, you know, I would say do these steps, but I wouldn’t necessarily get like meddling involved in somebody else’s issue. If you have no seniority at the company, I would not do it. I think it’s too dangerous, but know that these things get around. If you’re experiencing it, if somebody else down the hallway is experiencing it, if people are talking about it, You’re all collectively helping to get rid of this person.

Sarah E. Brown 23:14

So why does it seem, and this is a perception question I get but, why does it always seem that bullies get away with it?

Vicky Oliver 23:28

I think well partly because people are scared to talk up Okay for various reasons partly because they’re great at some aspect of their job, like let’s say they run a team of 30 people and they’re getting their work done or they’re great at pitching new business, because maybe they’re bullying you. but they’re charismatic to someone else. Or maybe they don’t start bullying someone until they detect a weakness, right? And they’re just charismatic. So I think they’re great at something. They got to a position of power. And now the bullying helps them keep others away from that power. And this is a formidable opponent. And if I’m just saying, if you’re new, if you’re a newbie there, recognize that you’re up against something that’s quite dangerous and that they know how to survive.

Sarah E. Brown 22:29

Well, I think it’s a really important point to make that if the person has been doing this for a while and is in the workplace, has been in the workplace for a while, they’ve got some what I call socially redeeming characteristics. They’ve got something that they’ve been contributing all along. So they’re not all bad. There’s something good about that. And it behooves us to see if we can find it so that we get a little balanced perspective. Not that we need to tolerate bad behavior towards us, but I think that is helpful in getting some perspective. The other thing you can do if the bully is bullying other people.

Vicky Oliver 25:06

You can watch how they react. Maybe some guy, you know, maybe the bully’s bullying a guy too, but like he’s just letting it bounce off of him or see how others, like watch, don’t just talk, but watch and listen and see how people react. And maybe you can develop a strategy for dealing with it, you know, recognizing that it’s going to be a long time before the company releases them.

Sarah E. Brown 25:29

Okay. So Vicky, what should I have asked you that I didn’t to understand this phenomenon and what we can do about it? Well, first of all, I think your questions are fantastic.

Vicky Oliver 25:44

So thank you. I just think that one other sort of maybe obvious thing is that we can try to model good behavior ourselves, right? We can be nice to the boss’s assistant. If there’s a receptionist in the company, we can be nice to that person. We can treat people with cordiality. We can respect people. We can keep our voices down and not yell. We can avoid a mode of crying, a behavior. We can avoid stress situations and be the person who solves the problem and not creates problems. More problems. Yeah, yeah, you’re there basically to solve whatever job you have. I feel you are there to solve a problem. So keep solving the problem. Be the go to person who solves the problems and calms the waters. And as more and more people respect you, your reputation will rise. And maybe that will also help the bully to see how great and fantastic an employee you are.

Sarah E. Brown 26:54

That’s really good advice, really, and a good way to wind up this discussion. Vicky, thank you so much for being with me. And for those of you listening, if you want to learn more about the great things Vicky is doing, you can go to Vickyoliver.com. Thank you. 

Sarah E. Brown 27:09

Thanks for listening to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. If you like what you are hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to www.sarahebrown.com. You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes, and learn more about our podcast guests, read my blog, browse through the books, or contact us for a chat. Goodbye for now.

Sarah E. Brown
Sarah E. Brown