As a leader, one must understand the importance of their part in the process of change and how their journey could help create a new structure for a more inclusive future.
Jennifer Brown is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, and diversity and inclusion expert. She is the Founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, a strategic leadership and diversity consulting firm that coaches business leaders worldwide on critical issues of talent and workplace strategy. Brown is a passionate advocate for social equality who helps businesses foster healthier, more productive workplace cultures.
In this episode, Jennifer shares with us how the second edition of her book, “How to be an Inclusive Leader”, will provide new insights and stories that spark learning when it comes to creating a culture of inclusivity in the workplace.
What you will learn from this episode:
  • Know what prompted Jennifer to write the second edition of her book, “How to be an Inclusive Leader”
  • Discover Jennifer’s pivotal points in re-evaluating the four stages of the Inclusive Leader Continuum
  • Find out how to look at the Inclusive Leader Assessment results as an opportunity to self-reflect, craft bridges, thrive, and move forward together
I tell people, don’t expect to be perfect; we cannot be and we can never be. Imperfection is just a way of being; I wouldn’t even say it’s a goal. It should be an expectation.
Jennifer Brown
Valuable Free Resource:
Topics Covered:
02:23 Jennifer describes how the pandemic exposed workplace inequities and allowed questions on transparency and accountability on employers towards real change and commitment
12:33 Jennifer’s book’s second edition, “How to be an Inclusive Leader”, as a second bite at the apple
17:47 The stages of Inclusive Leadership Continuum which people keep developing, evolving, and taking steps forward towards inclusivity
23:48 How Jennifer educated herself to understand how things hit people in certain environments
27:21 How to use the Inclusive Leader Assessment to make an impact and create a culture of belonging in order for us to thrive
32:40 The question that wasn’t asked: “Who is it for?”
Ways to Connect with Jennifer Brown:
Ways to Connect with Sarah E. Brown
Full Episode Transcript:
Jennifer Brown 0:00
I tell people don’t expect to be perfect; we cannot be and we can never be. Imperfection is just a way of being. I wouldn’t even say it’s a goal; it should be an expectation.
Sarah E. Brown 0:18
Hello, everyone. Welcome to The KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women, where we talk about challenges senior female leaders face in being happy and successful at work. I’m your host, Dr. Sarah E. Brown.
Sarah E. Brown 0:37
So as a part ofThe KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women, we spend a lot of time talking about tips for how leaders can become even more effective. And what better way to help everyone be happy, successful, and understood in other words, to experience less stress than to learn how to be even more inclusive?
So, our guest today is someone who has actually appeared on a previous podcast here; it’s Jennifer Brown.
She’s an award-winning Entrepreneur, Speaker, Diversity and Inclusion Consultant, and a Best-Selling Author. She is Founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, a 20-year-old certified woman and LGBTQ+ owned industry-leading DEI consulting firm. Her clients include FedEx, Hearst, American Red Cross, Under Armour, Major League Baseball, NBA, Toyota, Wells Fargo, and many more. She is a sought-after keynote speaker for executive leadership on the topic of leading inclusively in uncertain times. And she has a book entitled, “How to be an Inclusive Leader,” which is coming out this fall with the second edition. And that’s what we’re going to be talking about today.
Welcome, Jennifer.
Jennifer Brown 2:21
Thank you so much.
Sarah E. Brown 2:23
So it is 2022 and we are hopefully coming out of two years of pandemic. So Jennifer, have there been additional challenges to expanding DE&I as a result of the pandemic?
Jennifer Brown 2:41
Definitely. I really think it has reshaped the way we talk about it, the urgency that we talk about it with the emerging issues, I would say, within DEI that I think weren’t given a lot or any focus previous to the pandemic. It made everything so much more urgent in a way, and it has highlighted certain inequities within the workplace like business as usual, if you will, that have become, in a way, intolerable and out of date and harmful.
For one, I’m really grateful for the truthful conversations that we’ve all had over the last couple of years where people have finally found a different level of their voice and have been sharing. Employees have spoken and have learned to speak and have become brave enough to speak about the problems in the workplace that have held so many people back because of bias that permeates the systems.
So I feel like I’ve been waiting a long time, and it took a pandemic, and it took the horrible murder of George Floyd and everything that happened in the summer of 2020, and then cascaded from there. It really forced an honest conversation about what’s broken, and we were right there, we had a front row seat. And I was, by turns, excited and frustrated that it had taken this long to really have that kind of reckoning, but really grateful that we are embarking, I think, on a different road with greater understanding, with greater urgency, and the loud voices that are criticizing the systems are not going away; and in fact, I think this is here to stay. And so organization leaders are really behind the eight ball, struggling to learn everything they need to learn to update the workplace and to prepare it for the incoming generations who have very different expectations.
Sarah E. Brown 4:44
And what’s an example? You talked about George Floyd and that’s pretty obvious, but inside the workplace, what’s an example of an inequity that kind of got exposed or rose to the surface during the pandemic?
Jennifer Brown 4:59
Well, a lot of employees, they see much more than we realize. And we watch and observe who gets promoted, who gets advanced in organizations? What is pay equitable? You know, usually that’s something that is a bit of a black box, and it’s very confidential.
So what started to happen is questions of, you know, and the transparency of our age means that things can be questioned now. Why do we do it this way? It seems our company is doing sort of the bare minimum or superficial gestures towards this thing. It’s a really big priority, especially for younger generations. Inclusiveness is one of the top priorities for Gen Z, just to give an example, from a values perspective.
So the questions that are being leveled to institutions around why does our management team look this way and have a complete lack of certain kinds of diversity? Why do we not reflect the world that we do our work in or that we exist to serve or that we sell products and services to?
So just digging in to these questions that haven’t really been asked in this way before, and the accountability and the pressure that has occurred for real change and real commitment versus phoning it in for what we call performative actions and support, it’s gotten much more specific.
And again, I’m grateful for that, because there was a lot of phoning it in, and there still is a lot of “Oh, will placate this” or “Oh, we’ll kind of go, we’ll take two steps in this direction,” but we really won’t overhaul the system, or we won’t really challenge ourselves as a company to get ahead of certain issues and speak about it publicly.
So there’s this whole kind of new expectation, and therefore a new language and expectation’s being developed between employee and employer, which requires employers to really get comfortable being uncomfortable, because a lot of what’s being asked and demanded is way beyond how leaders used to lead. It’s way beyond the span of influence and control that probably most companies were comfortable with, inhabiting for decades.
So I refer to this moment as a new language, it’s a new set of expectations, a new playing field, and some of us are really playing catch up in terms of how do we meet this moment, how do we retool ourselves to really listen and then to redesign the way we do HR systems, the way that we look at talent, the way that we speak up on social issues; all of it, I think, is being debated. I think that’s healthy.
Sarah E. Brown 7:52
Well, I guess when you are thrown into a situation where everybody is remote where once everybody used to be in the same workspace, it does kind of set the stage for asking all kinds of questions. Well, why do we have to do anything the way we used to do it? So I can see how that would actually happen.
So what have you noticed in terms of how employees have been able to use their voice during this time, to actually bring issues to the forefront so that they can be addressed?
Jennifer Brown 8:31
So after the murder of George Floyd that whole summer and into the fall, and still to this day, most companies realized, we don’t know what we don’t know and it’s a liability for us. And not to be too cynical about it, but that’s probably the thought process that occurred to a lot of people. Because, sadly, this is not just the moral argument that “Oh, this is the right thing to do.” So regardless, the result was many, many listening forums and forums for sharing and lots of opportunities for the solicitation of feedback that really hadn’t been in place before that point.
So through all of this data collection, if you will, and the invitation to say, “Here’s what it feels like to be in this company, and be a black woman, or be a member of the LGBTQ community or be an ally, a millennial ally, who really believes in this stuff and is consistently disappointed, for example, with policies and the company’s actions or silence or lack of actions.” And so, all of this was invited, because it had to be; I mean, we were in a crisis on so many levels in 2020. It was kind of the bloodletting. It was a moment of, like I say, truthfulness that I hope we never lose, because so much that was important was revealed in those listening forums, in those opportunities for leaders to hear directly from people that they’d never heard from before. And empowering that conversation and then taking the actions that come out of that to whatever degree they could and were realistic.
But I think that it’s a healthy dynamic because the pressure is coming to be better, to be a better workplace culture where we can feel a sense that we belong, that we’re psychologically safe, that we can do our best work, right? But the reality being so far from that, for so many people, was a wonderful, like a cognitive dissonance and created this opportunity for innovation. The smart companies jumped into that, and saw this moment as an opportunity to innovate their own systems, to really challenge their own thinking, to acknowledge their generational bias, for example, to say, “We haven’t been doing enough.”
And so the right companies took it as an opportunity to take action. And then I think other companies like didn’t do it at all, or did it but didn’t follow up. And I think we see a lot of people and then leaving or retiring in place, as we say, like, “I’m in a job but I’m basically sabotaging the organization” or “I’m not really into it, I’m not really giving everything that I can because I don’t feel that the organization supports me and people that look like me.”
So companies now are feeling the pain with this retention, struggle, with the war for talent being the worst; it’s been in all these open jobs. It is, to me, really fascinating, because I think belonging is such an enabler of attention. It’s such a carrot, particularly for younger talent to say, like, “Hey, you matter here. We listen, we learn, we adjust, we take it on, and we’re not afraid to be uncomfortable and not know the answer. But if you come here, we will figure it out together.” And that goes a long way in terms of speaking the language of the very talent that we must have.
Sarah E. Brown 12:04
And I love that comment around belonging being so critical. It’s kind of a basic human need. But it is critical for actually doing your best work as well. And I think the listening forums that you described, and the way to get feedback on here’s what it really feels like to be a person in whatever category it is working in this company is a great idea. And I want to come back to that.
But before I ask more questions about that, I want to set the stage because you’re actually re-releasing your book, you’re doing version two of “How to be an Inclusive Leader”. Tell us a little bit about what prompted you to want to re-release your book.
Jennifer Brown 12:52
I know. It was a concept that my editor suggested, because I wanted to write another book, and I was assuming I would start from scratch. And he said, “Why don’t you consider a second edition?”
So as I learned about what goes into second editions, ours is a little unique in the end, because normally, there are very few updates in a second edition; 10% is new. But what happened when we decided to do a second edition, we dug in and we realized we love the first book and there’s so many people that are still such a fan of the first edition. But imagine having released a book in 2019. I mean, it was the before days, truly.
So I have much deepened in the work. I gave 200 keynotes over the course of the pandemic, virtually, and learned so much about what was in the pages of that original edition, and had learned how to really capitalize on and capture the key points, you know, how to make it real for people how to illustrate it, how to call them to action, where they typically struggled to understand or get stuck.
And so, as we went through it, it just had so much more to say, and it was really painful, trust me, to take out a lot of content and replace it. It’s really difficult. And I didn’t do this alone. I had an incredible team that could be harsh in terms of saying “Well, we only have x number of pages.” So we’ve got to adhere to that, which made it harder, because I didn’t want to give up anything, but at the same time, it felt we had greater clarity on some of these concepts. And I was very eager to put that new clarity into the pages, and yet keep the core model of the book which is a continuum. It’s like a four-phase model for our learning journey.
So the neat thing about for me, in my case, the second edition, is I got a second bite at the apple, like I got another chance to take a model that has become really, really so helpful for so many people and kind of put new meat on the bones, give it Iight in a different way, bring it life in a different way, contextualize it for our moment now.
And so, we did a new chapter on topics like privilege, for example, that has been so much talked about in the last couple of years but I think poorly understood and also a bit weaponized in terms of a tool; it’s been used to kind of banish people from the work and from contributing to the work. So I got to redefine that, I got to pull out different stories, I got to make it a little more hard hitting and concrete for people versus a little more philosophical when I first wrote it, because I was just a different person. I think we’ve all been changed by this experience in so many ways, and I still kind of feel like the ways I’ve been changed are still appearing to me. Really, we say it lightly, but it really deepened a lot of us, and it deepened us in our relationship with each other. And so I wanted the pages to reflect the pain of other people’s experiences that I have been privy to, that I wanted to make sure came alive in these pages.
And I wanted that to feel very recent, very relevant, very timely, because even I, I don’t know about you but I look at books now, and if they were written before a certain time, at least, like leadership books, I’m like, “eh.” I don’t know. So much shifted, that I really want to know is, what are we becoming? What’s next? What are we predicting? What changed? And what does leadership now look like? That’s what I’m really fascinated with. And I think we’re on a new path.
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Sarah E. Brown 17:47
And I will, as one who’s read the book, I will tell you that the stories do come to life.
But the stages of your continuum continue; no pun intended. But the basic framework is the same. As a review for people who may not have heard your first podcast or read the book, can you just do a review of the basic stages for us?
Jennifer Brown 18:10
Yes, thank you for asking. So this is a reflection of my own journey and a model that I created to make sense of where I felt like I was.
The first stage is unaware, which is I don’t know, there’s a problem. It’s not my lived experience, I don’t have the language, maybe I don’t care. It’s not happening to me so it doesn’t matter. It could be I’m a good person, I believe in equality, but I didn’t know what it has to do with me or I wouldn’t know where to contribute. So I could be those things. It’s sort of the “I don’t know what I don’t know” phase of the continuum.
Then aware is phase two, which is okay, now I’m waking up and beginning to look around. I’m beginning to notice, I’m thinking about bias, I’m noticing my own biases, I’m noticing the biases of others, I’m maybe reading and listening to different media, I’m sort of absorbing everything before perhaps I wasn’t taught in school in our own history as a country, just to give one example. I’m realizing maybe that I haven’t done enough or that I’m not proud of what I’ve done or not. So the aware phase is that “now I know what I don’t know,” and it’s uncomfortable and awkward, and we might feel regret, we might feel shame, we might feel guilt, all of those things as a result of learning. Sort of like the question like, “Where have I been?” And so, empathy is born in this stage, to say “Wow, I haven’t had to walk around and be concerned for my safety. I was protected.”
So then we move from aware then to active which is phase three, which is okay, “now that I know, I have to build competency and skill now around that awareness and begin to use my voice begin to speak, begin to make moves. I need to take steps.”
And this is an awkward phase. It is an uncertain phase. It is definitely a get comfortable with the uncomfortable phase because it’s about building the muscle of inclusive leadership, like, “What am I going to say? How am I going to start that conversation? How am I going to raise a bias that’s appearing in the meetings that I’m in? How am I going to challenge people that look like me, for example, and those that don’t? Like how am I going to begin to become more public about my actions, and really lead and be a role model?”
And so this is certainly a fail forward stage, it’s a stage of imperfection. I tell people, please, don’t expect to be perfect; we cannot be and we can never be. Imperfection is just a way of being; I wouldn’t even say it’s a goal. It should be an expectation, right? That we’re going to get some things great and right and then have to get feedback and have to work on other things that are not going right and have the best intentions but not understand our impact. That calibration goes on, in active.
And then the fourth phase is advocate, and this is the last phase. I think it’s aspirational. Some of us live in this place because it’s our job or we’re just so passionate and so knowledgeable. And we know we have the muscle built, we know how to use it, we know how to challenge things. We are comfortable being uncomfortable, and we’re fearless and courageous in terms of pointing out and challenging things, and we have that resilience built into ourselves because of that deep knowledge and lived experience or just sheer courage. I see some people being this for certain communities that they’ve had a direct experience with, like a parent of a kid with a disability might have gone down this road, maybe not by choice, but became hugely proud and strong and informed and an incredible advocate.
But we can be there and we can also be in the earlier stages at the same time, still taking our baby steps, still learning how to ride the tricycle; falling off, getting back on, falling off, getting back on.
And so the point I hope people take from this is it’s okay, where we are make sense. We are learning; we’re always learners. There’s no shame, and this is not I’m a bad person. It’s that I didn’t know this. And what am I doing differently as a result of what I have been shown what I’ve learned? How am I being gracious and generous with receiving and getting feedback, and giving feedback? How am I humbly submitting to the fact that this is a lifelong journey of evolution that we’re being invited to?
And that’s really the feeling I want people to be left with, like, as long as I’m taking my steps forward and holding myself accountable for developing and evolving, there’s no kind of right answer in terms of how long this should take or Jennifer, when should I be here, even though I get those questions, because people like to nail things down and make to do lists. That’s good, but it is as much a mindset shift and a heart set shift as it is developing a new competency. It’s a way of being; it’s a way of paying attention to the world, it’s a way of feeling empathy, it’s a way of kind of reflecting to others that belonging is important, and that we prioritize people’s experiences in a system and that’s important to us, and acknowledging that for some of us, that may be more comfortable than for others. And so that doesn’t make us a bad person. But it certainly, I think, is incumbent on all of us and is a wonderful opportunity ahead of all of us to rebalance a system that has been imbalanced in the past.
Sarah E. Brown 23:48
And throughout each of these stages of the continuum, you have in their tips for how a leader can begin to educate himself or herself on what the lived experiences of people that are not like them; that’s number one. And also because 50% of us have some degree of this explore what privilege we have that may not be apparent to us. And I want to ask you a question about that. Because there’s also a warning that you have that we cannot do that at the expense of those in marginalized groups. It is not there. We cannot overburden them for our own education, for example, regardless of who we are, and what group that we’re trying to learn more about. So how do you go about doing it then?
Jennifer Brown 24:52
Yeah. Well, I think of it as the learning. We have to set our own learning goals that come in the form of not just the human that we can go and ask, but the reading, the listening, the podcasts, the TV, media, staying up on if you’re in social media, certainly there’s all kinds of dialogue going on there. But all kinds of education that’s going on there.
Actually, people are sharing so much wisdom about their experiences. On Twitter, for example, I have learned so much through reading long threads by people who are reacting to whether a piece of legislation or something that a public figure says, or a book or whatever. Reading those things even challenges me still, and to this day, I mean, my work, I’m still a learner in the work, but I’m there to kind of read through it and understand how things hit people in certain environments.
So I don’t need time with that person to have them explain it to me, I need to make time to read people’s writing, I need to make time to read people’s stories and watch their talks and listen in to webinars, which by the way, since the pandemic, we all went virtual. The accessibility of all of the storytelling, all of this information has never been greater. There is so much to take in.
And as somebody in the LGBTQ+ community, I would say, without doing your homework first, don’t come and ask me, “Jennifer, what’s the LGBTQ experience?” My first question is going to be “So what do you know already? What have you taken on to become a student of? What do you understand? What is your context?” So I expect that we do the majority of the work before bring, I would hope, kind of the more complex or nuanced questions to people that were puzzling through. I like those questions, because I feel like somebody is really valuing my time, and has prepared to use my time wisely and respectfully.
Sarah E. Brown 27:03
Okay. That’s a very good explanation.
Jennifer Brown 27:05
Sarah E. Brown 27:06
Okay. It’s essentially using the resources that are available to you to understand at a macro level before you get down to the micro level.
Jennifer Brown 27:17
That’s right.
Sarah E. Brown 27:18
Jennifer Brown 27:19
Sarah E. Brown 27:19
Okay. So I do get that.
Now, as a part of your book, you include an online assessment, which we actually talked about in the previous podcast. And the assessment actually helps you as a taker of the as FT assessee to figure out where you are in the stages of this continuum on a host of different issues. So say a little bit more about this, and how a listener might take advantage of this.
Jennifer Brown 27:51
Yes. So there aren’t that many assessments out there that give us a pulse on our own biases, for example, in how we currently define inclusive leadership, how much or how little we really know. So I think it’s such an important complement to the book. And I really recommend. It takes 10 minutes. It’s free. It’s available on and you can also go to find information on it, but it will spit out a rough estimate.
And again, we’re notoriously not great at answering questions. I won’t say honestly, but the self-report is limited, right? We see ourselves differently than the world perhaps experiences us, and the work of our life, of course, is to kind of bring these things in alignment. But that’s a life’s work; it’s a long endeavor.
And so, this is a self-assessment, and it’s one piece of the puzzle. It’s not the whole answer, and I would encourage you to sort of look critically at your results and just take that in and say, Does this feel right? Does it resonate? Is it what other people would say about me? And I hope what it does is it provides some kind of baseline from which to jump off and actually be extremely curious then. In the context of relationships with others, how am I appearing? Because remember, there’s intent and there’s impact. So we may answer any kind of assessment with the intent of the person that we want to be, but the impact is really what matters. And this is what we’re often not able to see or perceive accurately is how our intentions land.
So the work of inclusive leadership is, in the continuum, we talk about this in sort of the middle stages, especially at the phase three, which is okay, go and seek information on impact.
So when I did that, or when I told that story, or when I asked that question, or when I spoke up, what kind of impact did that have? And we may be surprised by the answer that we have more work to do. We have more, we need to calibrate more because we are sort of off the mark. And that’s okay. As with any kind of behavior, and how can I support you? And what does support look like? It should be a question we ask a lot. And then as we show up and provide that support, we are going to do it imperfectly, for a while, and maybe forever. But this is part of that learning.
So, again, as you take the assessment and you get your results, there are reading lists, there’s podcasts to listen to, there’s certain things that we’ve pulled out from our world and our library of resources to point you in a certain direction to study or listen more to, and I love it for that, because it’s so concrete. People are asking all the time, “What should I be reading? What should I be listening to?” And I hope we’ve given you a specific to where you came out with your answers, specific resources that are going to meet you where you’re at in your journey and not kind of either throw you into the deep end when you’re not ready, but also be, perhaps, too basic or too beginner. Because I do think this is why the phases are important, that we have to understand where the learner’s at.
And this is advice I would give everybody listening it’s not just where we’re at in our growth, but really, where are other people and what do they understand or not? Or where are they in unaware? And how can we be a part of perhaps accelerating their journey, our journey, our journey together, if we’re on the same team.
Everybody’s in a different place, so what’s so important is understanding where we are, understanding where others are, and then crafting the bridges between us so that we can move forward together. Because if we sort of throw the wrong remedy to some people, it may push them away, it may overwhelm, it may cause resistance when really what we want is interest and curiosity and openness. So just really become about understanding your audience, understanding those around you, and then kind of meeting them where they’re at and investing in their journey, in addition to our own.
So it’s really very fascinating. It’s all about to me human behavior and the self in the system, both of those things being really important to understand as we embark on this work.
Sarah E. Brown 32:34
And I think it’s very interesting almost as a study guide through your book, that what I found helpful is that the results actually pointed me back to various places in your book in addition to other resources.
Jennifer Brown 32:39
That’s right.
Sarah E. Brown 32:40
So Jennifer, is there a question that I should have asked you about version two of your book that I didn’t, or the second edition of your book?
Jennifer Brown 32:49
Yeah, thank you. I love that question. I would say “who is it for?”
We wrote it to be so accessible, meet you where you’re at, like I was just saying, and hopefully something that’s really actionable and makes things practical to do right away and demystifies some of these concepts that we’ve all probably heard, talked about so much, but some of us are probably sitting on the sidelines, not really sure how to engage, how to contribute. What would I say? Where would I start? I think it’s so good for people at that stage. Because to me, that’s the group that I really want to engage who aren’t doing much and yet have the will to be involved. As long as you have the will and the energy, I can work with that. It’s really a matter of skill development.And I think that’s the perfect reader, if I could say.
But for those of you who are listening, if you’tr listening to this and you’re like, “yes, I love it, I get it, I’m on my journey,” please think about who may benefit from having a pass-along version of this book, who may benefit from having a book that finally makes sense or that doesn’t feel like it’s putting us into a corner, but really inviting us into the evolution. This is that book.
So it’s incumbent on us and really imperative actually that we involve new potential change makers in where we’re going. It’s critical; I cannot underscore that enough. And yet where DEI has focused in the past has really been those of us who struggle to fit in, in a system. Those of us who’ve had that marginalized experience. And we’ve been largely responsible in many ways for bringing our stories and challenging systems and making suggestions and doing all what we call that emotional labor to make our workplaces and other systems better.
But what we really have to figure out is the rest of us, you know, people who just look at this and are sort of in that unaware to aware phase of saying this doesn’t pertain, it’s not important, it’s not critical. It’s really an awakening that group of folks. We will benefit from having everyone engaged and making their own unique contribution. We actually will not build our way out of this if we don’t have a full group of builders, builders that look like us, builders that when you look at them, you think, “Well, they have nothing to say and nothing to contribute,” which by the way is never true.
But the work is big, it’s important, and we can’t afford to leave any builder behind. And so I like to think of it that way to kind of say my challenge now, having been in this work for over 20 years, is to really figure out and crack that nut, like reach people that could contribute so much. And you speak of privilege.Maybe in an identity that gives so much privilege that comes with so much opportunity to contribute and yet they don’t understand what that looks like. This book is perfect for a reader like that. So thank you for asking
Sarah E. Brown 36:15
And Jennifer, thank you so much for being with us today.
Jennifer Brown 36:19
Sarah E. Brown 36:19
Congratulations on the book!
Jennifer Brown 36:21
Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
Sarah E. Brown 36:24
Thanks for listening to The KTS Success Factor Podcasts for Women. If you like what you’re hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes and learn more about our podcast guests, read my blog, browse through the books or contact us for a chat. Goodbye for now.

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