You don’t need to be mean to have boundaries—you just need to be willing to honor them.

If saying “no” makes you feel guilty, selfish, or worried about disappointing others, this episode will help you rethink what healthy boundaries really look like

Jen Fry is a conflict literacy expert, TEDxDuke speaker, tech founder, and former NCAA volleyball coach. Through her firm, JenFryTalks, she helps leaders and organizations build cultures of clarity, accountability, and trust by turning conflict into a leadership advantage. She’s the author of I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk. 

In this episode, they unpack why boundaries are so difficult—especially for women—and how to set them without damaging relationships. You’ll learn practical ways to say no, enforce your boundaries, navigate guilt, and build the confidence to advocate for yourself with clarity and compassion.

What you will learn from this episode:

  • Why women often struggle more than men to set and maintain boundaries.
  • The difference between saying “no” and actually enforcing a boundary.
  • How micro-advocacy helps build confidence for bigger boundary conversations.

“People are habitual line steppers. They will keep pushing.”

– Jen Fry

Topics Covered:

02:00 – What conflict literacy means and why it is a critical leadership skill

03:20 – Jen’s personal journey with boundaries and why family relationships are often the hardest

05:00 – Why women face greater pressure to say yes and keep everyone happy

09:05 – Why Jen wrote I Said No and the power of storytelling in learning boundaries

10:40 – The true definition of a boundary and why it must involve your own actions

13:05 – Using micro-advocacy to build confidence in speaking up for yourself

18:20 – Creating new habits for yourself and the people around you

19:15 – The powerful reminder that you can leave situations that no longer serve you

21:10 – How Jen navigates friendships with chronic lateness while honoring her own needs

23:00 – The role of repair, reconciliation, and meaningful apologies in healthy relationships

24:45 – How boundaries show up physically in the body and what your emotions are trying to tell you

Key Takeaways:

“Women have the hardest time setting boundaries because they don’t want to disappoint people.” – Jen Fry

“A boundary is something that you set, not what someone else does.” – Jen Fry

“You have to practice advocating for yourself before you can say the big no.” – Jen Fry

“It’s hard to do, but you’re worth it.” – Jen Fry

Ways to Connect with Jen Fry:

Ways to Connect with Sarah E. Brown:

 

Full Episode Transcript:

(AI helped us put this together, so if you see any weird grammar or missed words—just know we nailed it during the actual chat.)

Jen Fry

People are habitual line steppers. They will keep pushing. 

So you have to understand that when you set a boundary, more than likely that’s not gonna be the only no. That’s not gonna be the only request. You have to keep enforcing it.

Sarah E. Brown

Hello everyone. 

Welcome to the KTS Success Factor podcast for women. where we talk about challenges senior female leaders face in being happy and successful at work. 

I’m your host, Dr. Sarah E. Brown. 

My guest today is Dr. Jen Fry. 

She is a conflict literacy expert, sports geographer with a PhD from Michigan State, tech founder, TEDx Duke speaker, and veteran international presenter. 

She leads JenFryTalks, a conflict literacy firm that sits at the intersection of conflict and culture and turns conflict into a leadership advantage by building cultures of clarity, accountability, and trust. 

A former NCAA volleyball coach with 15 years in the Pac-12, Big Ten, and MEAC, Jen has delivered 200-plus talks and trainings. Her work equips leaders and teams to engage, speak, and repair with precision so they leverage tension instead of being leveled by it. 

She’s the author of I Said No, How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk. 

Welcome, Jen. 

Jen Fry

Dr. Sarah Brown, thank you for having me. 

Sarah E. Brown

So I have to ask you, what is conflict literacy? I love the term, but I’m not sure I know what it means.

Jen Fry

Well, if we think about literacy as reading, it’s being able to understand this skill in depth. 

If someone is literate, they understand how to read. 

Same thing with conflict. When we have people who are conflict literate, they understand and have the skills of navigating conflict. 

And so that’s my goal is how do I help equip people to have the skills to be able to navigate this really ugly, messy, and uncomfortable topic. 

Sarah E. Brown

Got it.And one of the topics underneath the topic of conflict is boundaries, which is what you wrote your book about. 

So tell us a bit about your relationship with boundaries and how your relationship with boundaries evolved.

Jen Fry

Oh my gosh. 

You know, so I think unknowingly, when I was younger, I’ve had good boundaries where I was, I wouldn’t be able to be peer pressured. 

Like a lot of young people are able to be peer pressured. I would just be like, nope, it’s not going to happen. Someone else, but it’s not me. 

And so I’ve always had that boundary, which I think kept me out of trouble, which probably was because I was afraid of my mom because she always said if I went to jail, she’d never get me out. And I believed her. 

And so I think just that fear of knowing my mom would leave me in jail was enough to put a boundary of not getting into trouble. 

But for me, I think boundaries are easier to give to someone you don’t know as opposed to someone you know, right? It’s really hard to set boundaries with family members, especially because of how long the relationship has been. And these are people who have known you to not have boundaries. And so that part is really difficult. 

And so for me, my relationship with boundaries has grown in the sense of better understanding how to have the conversations with people I know and love, which tends, I think, to be the hardest boundaries to set for anyone.

Sarah E. Brown

Do you think women have more trouble setting boundaries than men? 

Jen Fry

Oh, 1,000%. That’s not even a question.

Sarah E. Brown

And why do you think that is? 

Jen Fry

Because society has, I don’t even know if the word is forced upon us, but society has kind of forced this idea, I’ll say, of the strong woman. And women have to be able to manage everything and everybody. 

And if you’re not doing that, then you are not a good woman, mom, whatever, put it in there. And so think about it. 

If a mom were to set a boundary of saying, I’m not going to go sit at my kid’s track practice every day, that’s my time to go read at home, so many people would be upset with her. 

You’re not a good parent. You’re not going to go watch your kid every second of the day. And her boundary is like, no, I want to use it as personal time. 

And people will get upset with her. If a parent were, next week is Thanksgiving. 

And if a woman sets a boundary of saying, I’m not going to cook Thanksgiving dinner, think about how many family members would be upset. 

Say you tell your mom, mom, today I’m not going to cook Thanksgiving dinner. And maybe a few months before, I’m not going to cook Thanksgiving dinner. I’m not going to have that at my house. 

Well then, well, who’s going to have it? Your brother can’t do it. Your sister’s out of town. And all of these now rattles off all the family members who can’t do it. And then, you know, mom, I can’t do it. So then guess what? Your dad maybe calls. Hey, you know, your mom told me you’re not having Thanksgiving dinner. Well, who’s going to do it? You know, your casserole is my favorite thing. And then guess what? 

Your siblings call you. Hey, Jen, heard you’re not having Thanksgiving dinner. Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? You know, my place is too small. 

And so you set the boundary of you’re exhausted. You don’t have time to clean the house and put the tables out. And build out the menu for the 10 course meal and grocery shop and do all that and you just don’t have the bandwidth or the mind, but you have all of these peer pressures that are just pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing on your boundaries to then just force you to do it. 

Men don’t have that problem. Right? 

Like men, A, if we think about just the Thanksgiving meal, men only maybe have one or two duties. Maybe cook the turkey, right? Like they have small pieces of the whole dance.

Where the women have to manage the whole dance. And that’s the problem is that I tell people, and this is surprise, the first no of a boundary is always the easiest to say. 

And people feel it’s the hardest. It’s not. 

When I tell you I’m not gonna have you for Thanksgiving dinner, that might be the easiest, because the next 10 times you have to say no get progressively harder. And so that’s why women have this, the superwoman, the strong woman cape on, and so because of that, it’s really hard for them to set boundaries and say no, because they don’t want to disappoint people, they’re a people pleaser. 

It might be someone’s last time here, blah blah, whatever it is, and so absolutely women have the hardest time of setting boundaries.

Sarah E. Brown

So it’s funny you bring up the holiday dinner as an example because I just had that conversation with a friend yesterday whose kids called, one of her kids called and said, are you doing your traditional brunch this year? 

Because he hadn’t gotten the invitation and all of that. And she said, no, I’m not because I got an invitation to go to this other place. 

And so I’m going to go. And he said, how can you do that?

And she said, it was the hardest conversation I’ve ever had, but I said, it was really important for me to have this time where I was being pampered, so I decided I wasn’t doing it this year. 

And she said, but now I’m feeling guilty about it.

Jen Fry

And then the problem is, is now the guilt makes them feel like they have to overcompensate in some way. 

Well, let me go do this. Maybe I’ll just make a small brunch and they can take it home, right? Like all these things. And there’s such a guilt of saying no and disappointing people. 

And I’m so, tell your friend, I’m so proud of her that she knows that, that she deserves it. You know, I have a friend who’s, whose mom had said, I’m being forced to do it. And I’m like, you are in your 70s. No one is forcing you to make brunch. 

And and what I see is people use that terminology to negate that they have a decision in that. If I say, you know, I’m being forced to make Thanksgiving, then I have no say in it. I’m just doing what I’m told. That’s not true. 

And that takes out the decision making of I don’t want to do this, but I’m saying yes to make someone else happy. That’s a hard thing to say. And some people don’t want to admit that. So they’ll say, I’m being forced. No one is forcing you to do anything. You are making the active decision.

Sarah E. Brown

Okay, so you’ve written a book about this. 

Why did you want to write a book about boundaries?

Jen Fry

I felt when I looked and I was, for me, I think the title is important because I looked around and I said, are any other books having this title? 

And most of them were like about body autonomy for little kids. 

But I really wanted to write this book and write it through storytelling and not a theoretical framework because I think a lot of people see themselves in the stories. and it helps them relate better. 

And so I wanted to write this to give people reflection questions and stories to see how they can go and do these certain hard moments. Because the thing about setting boundaries, it’s really, really hard. 

It’s one of the hardest things you’ll do, especially when you grow up in a family that doesn’t set boundaries. Your mom has never set them. There’s an expectation that you will not have boundaries. 

And so I wanted to give people who are reading this an idea of what it looks like to navigate through the process of setting up boundaries for yourself, and like you said, for your friend, how hard it is to have that conversation.

Sarah E. Brown

And so what do you want people to take away from the book? What’s the core message, the takeaway message? 

Jen Fry

That it’s hard to do, but you’re worth it. 

Sarah E. Brown

Okay. And do you have a working definition of boundaries?

Jen Fry

Boundaries is something that you set, not what someone else does. 

So for instance, when someone says, stop yelling at me, that’s not a boundary. A boundary is me saying, if you continue yelling at me, I will leave. 

Sarah E. Brown

All right, that is very good clarification. 

Jen Fry

Thank you. A boundary is the thing you do, not someone else does, right? Because you have to be in control of it. And if you say, stop yelling at me, that’s not a boundary I’m saying. There’s nothing active I’m doing. The activeness is If you continue yelling, I will leave. 

And so making that, like you said, kind of that nuance out so that people understand you have to be in control of your movements. 

And again, when people take out the control that they have, it makes them just a victim of it. And so that’s why it’s important to say the boundary I set, like your friend, is I’m not making brunch. I am going to go get pampered. That is my boundary. I’m not doing that. You have to have ownership on what you’re doing, not what someone else is doing.

Sarah E. Brown

So it’s more than saying no. 

Jen Fry

Yes. 

Sarah E. Brown

It’s enforcing the no. 

Jen Fry

Yes, 100%, 100%. 

Sarah E. Brown

So if I’m having trouble with this, And I suspect there will be a lot of listeners who are in that. How would I get started with setting boundaries?

Jen Fry

That’s a really good question. And so it’s kind of something that I think about as micro-advocacy. Because many times, like, if you’re going to start with the boundary of saying no to making Thanksgiving dinner, that’s a huge jump. 

Like, if you have not set any boundaries before, I’m proud of you, but that’s really strong, right? Because you haven’t had practice in saying no. You have to have practice. 

And so it’s micro-advocacy. Literally, it’s stuff like, you go to a restaurant and they have the order wrong. And you say, I ordered shrimp instead of steak. 

You have to practice advocating for yourself. It’s going to the nail salon and they maybe put the wrong color on. 

And instead of you just saying, well, it’s fine. I’m saying, please remove this and fix it. If you do not fix it, I will leave.

Sarah E. Brown

All right, there you go. There’s the thing. It’s not only making the request and the advocacy, but it’s coming up with a consequence. 

Or maybe you just start by making the request.

Jen Fry

Well, you have to start somewhere. And the start is using your voice, because you can’t jump from never advocating for yourself to saying a big no. It doesn’t work that way. 

So you have to build it up with micro advocacy, because a part of this is you’re advocating for yourself. Right? That’s a part of the boundary. 

And so micro-advocacy is helping you do kind of the scaffolding to get to the big no’s. 

But you have to have practice of doing little hard moments to be able to build up to that big no that’s going to, you know, hurt some feelings or make some people upset.

Sarah E. Brown

OK, so I think in terms of really key takeaways from this discussion, one is having boundaries requires you to take action and to enforce consequences. And you get started with micro-advocacy. 

So are there other tips in the book you want to share right now that would be good takeaways for our listeners today? 

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Jen Fry

I think to understand, so many people, they’ll set a boundary and then they’ll get mad when someone oversteps it. 

And they’ll be like, I set the boundary and no one listened. People are habitual line steppers. They will keep pushing. 

So you have to understand that when you set a boundary, more than likely that’s not going to be the only no. That’s not going to be the only request. You have to keep enforcing it. 

You have to keep enforcing it. And it might be, you know, Sarah, if you continue yelling at me, I’m not going to have this conversation with you. 

And then maybe after that happens, it’s like, hey, I’m glad we had that conversation, but please know in the future, if you yell at me, I’m not even going to entertain it. And you have to keep setting stuff because people aren’t used to it. 

And I don’t want to say sometimes it’s not a fault of their own, but society doesn’t teach people to understand boundaries. We don’t teach them to set it, and we also don’t teach people to understand boundaries. 

And so, that’s a big thing to kind of really understand is that it’s a hard process for everyone involved, especially when it’s people who have never set boundaries before. 

Like if you and the family are known for waking up at two in the morning and picking someone up and giving someone money and doing this and doing that, and then all of a sudden you say no, well, everyone is going to be pushing up on you because everyone has gotten used to you doing this thing. 

Sarah E. Brown

Okay, so it’s creating new habits for everybody.

Jen Fry

That’s a beautiful way of saying it. 

Sarah E. Brown

Everybody that’s affected by life. Yes. Okay, so it is going to take time. Yeah. Anything else that we should… 

Jen Fry

Yes, I think that you don’t have to stay, you can leave. And I know that sounds really easy and simple, but I think about when people are going to something that they really love, and they’re waiting for someone, and they get mad and mad that the person’s late, and they feel like because the person’s driving to see them, they have to stay around and wait for the person. 

And I say, like, you don’t have to wait for anyone. 

A boundary is if you’re not here by 5:15, I am leaving. I’m sorry you’re on the way, but I am leaving because this is important to me. 

And where I see a lot of people, especially women, fault is that they’ll want to go to a concert. They’re waiting for someone. The person is, they’ll say, okay, I want to leave at 5:15. And it’s 5:20, 5:.30, and they’re like, well, they’re on the way. They’ll be here in 10 minutes. 

And the guilt of a person driving to meet them overrides what they want to do. And so instead, they wait. And now they want to be there at 5:15 to park, to get good seats, to get their food. And now they’re leaving the house at 5:50. and everything’s rushed they can’t find the parking spot all of the excitement is now gone and they’re pissed.

And where i’ll see people is that they’ll just say well i’ll just be pissed and it’s like you’re ruining a moment because you didn’t want to leave you can leave you do not have to feel guilty if someone is late to something you want to do or an event.

I  have a friend I love him, he’s one of my best friends, and he is horribly late to things. I mean, an hour or two, horribly late. And it got to be the point, we went to this place in D.C. called Barmini, and it does, like, drink flights, and it has a whole story, and it’s a beautiful experience, and it’s expensive. And you get 90 minutes, and the first time he was 30 minutes late. 

And I was livid. Like, you know how you just keep looking at the door? I mean, I’m just sitting there because you can’t start the service without them. And you only get 90 minutes. 

I am livid. And so he finally gets there. 

And I said, If you do this, like I understand you’re going to be late, whatever. I said, but for stuff like this, I will not invite you if you’re going to be this late. I will not. Bottom line. 

And so I have had to come to terms with his lateness in that what is important for me, those are things I’m like, you cannot be late. Other things, I’ll bring my laptop and I’ll work. 

And so that’s the thing is that you can leave with certain things. Like, I will not be here if you’re going to be this late. I will not. 

And so many people are like, well, they’re driving 45 minutes to meet me. Then they should have left early. You can leave and go do the thing you want, because now you’re going to be mad in the car, mad at the event, and you’re going to not enjoy it because you waited for them. No, leave.

Sarah E. Brown

Okay, so that’s a perfect segue. I’d like to know how your friend who was 30 minutes late reacted to what you said.

Jen Fry

Well, I think it was A, in the way that I explained it. Like, I wasn’t saying they’re crying or making a scene or anything of that. I just said, like, this is unacceptable. You cannot be this late again. 

I said, I will just not invite you. I said, I love you. I love doing things like this with you. I will not invite you. Bottom line. And I let him make the decision. 

If you’re going to be that late, you know you can’t come with me here. This is a non-negotiable for me. I’m not spending $150 a person because you are just a late person. No. 

Now, if we have brunch, pretty much what I do now, if he’s late to a meal, he’s paid. That’s my rule now if he is late he is paid i’m not gonna wait an hour for you to be late and pay.

So you are paying for the meal and that’s kind of a joke between us but like we went to watch the Kamala Harris her book tour and in order for us to not be late I went like we had dinner before So we had dinner so that we could be so like stuff like that. 

But you have to also know your people. If I told him you can never be late to anything again, I’m setting myself for failure. 

Sarah E. Brown

Yeah, that’s right. Because you can’t control him. 

Jen Fry

I can’t, but I can control. Here are the events that are important to me. And these are the ones you will not be late to. Anything else, like I said, I’ll bring my laptop, you’re going to pay for brunch, but these events to me, you cannot be late. And so we were able to have a beautiful conversation because it was a meeting in the middle. 

I’m not asking you to be on time for everything, but these once a month, once every few months, you are not going to be late. And so that’s also the compromise because I think Sometimes when people set boundaries, they’ll tend to go the right. The pendulum will swing. Everything becomes a boundary. You can’t believe you can. 

And it just like you’re going to burn yourself out versus what are the important boundaries that you’re going to set that make life easier?

Sarah E. Brown

That’s a good point. Pick your battles. 

Jen Fry

Yes. 

Sarah E. Brown

But that’s a good segue into something that I read in your bio about her work equips leaders and teams to engage, speak, and repair with precision. What’s the repair part?

Jen Fry

So I think a problem when we talk a lot about conflict is people don’t understand repairing and reconciliation. And that’s a major part of it. It has to be. 

I think about, I mean, I grew up in a household, too, where we didn’t talk about conflict and we definitely didn’t talk about apologies. Right? 

Apology was like, we’re going to go buy you that thing you wanted, or go to McDonald’s. 

It wasn’t, I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. I’m sorry what I, like, we don’t talk about repair and reconciliation. 

So you have a lot of people who walk around with pain and trauma because they never got apologies from people they love.

And they’re expected to eat it. Right? Like I think about one thing that really frustrated with my ex is that we would never talk about things and the apology was a little rare. And it’s like you have to talk things out and to be able to get on the road to reconciliation and repairing and looking at what does repair mean for you. 

And I think a lot of people don’t even know that. 

When you get in a fight with someone, what does repair reconciliation look for you? What do you want? When you leave this conversation, what would you want to have occurred that makes you feel like this relationship or friendship is back on the road? What would that look like? 

And so for me, I think that’s a big thing of also understanding that when a friendship or relationship, whatever it is, has been fractured, repairing takes a while. It’s not a super glue, hold it for 10 seconds and everything is good to go. 

A part of repairing means you have to show the work that needs to be done and you’re actually doing it. Not just you saying, I’m sorry I hurt you. It’s what is the work you’re actively doing to make sure things are being fixed the way you said they would be fixed. That’s the repairing part.

Sarah E. Brown

Got it. 

So, Dr. Jen Fry, what’s one thing I should have asked you that I didn’t to help our listeners understand the importance or how to set effective boundaries?

Jen Fry

Oh, that’s a good one. 

I think something maybe is like how it shows up in our body. I think a lot of times we don’t think about it, and because we don’t think about these feelings, we don’t see when they’re showing up. 

And so one thing I would say is that you have to pay attention to how you feel in those moments. 

Your stomach feels, maybe you’re sweating, you’re getting nervous. 

Like, I need you to really connect what’s happening in your body to the feelings that’s occurring. Because the better you understand those feelings, the better when they start showing up, you can start managing them. 

But if you don’t understand that every time you set a boundary, you start getting snappy at people, then that means you’re hurting these relationships because you’re trying to do one thing to help yourself. 

And so being able to pay attention and to say, OK, when I set the boundary with my family, I realize it starts to make me feel really uncomfortable and frustrated and not like I’m being heard. 

So then I start snapping at other people. 

And so really connecting these feelings with what’s going on emotionally inside your body, because that’s going to help you out a lot. 

And to be able to manage them, to know that I know I have to set a boundary with my family and my stomach starts to get really, really upset. 

And I have to manage that so that I still do the thing versus letting those kind of things going on in my body drive me not ending up to do anything. 

So really starting to connect.

Sarah E. Brown

Or ignoring it.

Jen Fry

Yep, ignoring it. 

Start connecting how you’re feeling, what you’re doing, all those emotionally so that you can start connecting words, all of it together.

And that way you’re better fully understanding the totality of what’s going on.

Sarah E. Brown

Well, thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation, and I’ve read a lot of the book, so I highly commend. I said No, How to Have Boundaries and Backbone While Not Being a Jerk by Jen Fry. 

Thanks so much for being with me today. 

Jen Fry

Thank you, friend. 

Sarah E. Brown

Thanks for listening to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. If you like what you are hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to www.sarahebrown.com. You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes and learn more about our podcast guests, read my blog, browse through the books, or contact us for a chat. Goodbye for now.

Sarah E. Brown
Sarah E. Brown