Are you stuck with a boss that you just can’t bare? Are you struggling to try to prove your worth?
 
Learn to let go and build better bridges for you, your growth, and your business.
 
Dr. Alan M. Patterson is an organizational development consultant, specializing in executive and leadership development. Having led hundreds of clients for over four decades, Dr. Patterson continues to ignore standard coaching methods, opting to pursue and lead clients down the path of meaningful careers that are not only successful but also rewarding. He’s worked with everyone from the Federal Reserve Bank to Hewlett Packard to Major League Baseball and the United States Navy. His latest book is Burn Ladders, Build Bridges, Pursuing Work with Meaning and Purpose.
 
In this episode, Alan Patterson shares what it means to be a ladder burner, to build better relationships, to discover new paths, and to find greater opportunities for yourself.
What you will learn from this episode:
  • Find out what a ladder burner is and how to become one
  • Dive into why you don’t really need to become a pro in your business to make it great
  • Learn how to define and find meaning and purpose in yourself and in your work
 
 
“You have to define and find meaning and purpose because nobody’s going to give that to you.”
– Alan Patterson
Valuable Free Resource:
  • Want to find out how to become a powerful woman leader by letting go and welcoming growth? Visit ladderburners.com
 
 
Topics Covered:
01:51 – The two sides on how Alan helps women business leaders achieve their potential
02:55 – The brand-new look of success: What is the standard coaching that Alan tends to ignore
04:22 – Alan explains the backstory of what is a ladder burner
06:31 – Burning ladders, building bridges: Alan shares what are the skills you’ll be needing to be a ladder burner
11:53 – The powerful trio: What are the characteristic types of positions you should be recruiting for your team
17:46 – To greater heights: What kind of work environment should you strive to be in and what kind of environment should you leave
20:07 – Pandemic hits: Alan shares what made him decide to write a book and how it all started
22:38 – What should be the responsibilities of women business leaders?
24:04 – Want to find out how to become a powerful woman leader by letting go and welcoming growth? Visit ladderburners.com
Key Takeaways:
“It’s a network to talk to people and to understand what’s critical and important to them, which as I said earlier, helps define what’s critical and important to you. You resonate.” -Alan Patterson
 
“Every conversation is an opportunity for a relationship.” – Alan Patterson
 
“What else are we doing in our lives if we’re not making those kinds of heart-to-heart connections?” – Alan Patterson
 
“Your group, your context, includes people inside and outside the organization that gives you purpose in being.” -Alan Patterson
 
“You’re worth more than working for an idiot.” -Alan Patterson
 
“Don’t think that you’re going to join an organization and that they’re going to find out a purpose and meaning for you, you have to do it.” -Alan Patterson
Ways to Connect with Dr. Alan M. Patterson:
Ways to Connect with Dr. Sarah E. Brown:
 
Full Episode Transcript:
 
Alan Patterson 0:00
If you want to pursue meaning and purpose in your work, you need to unleash your intrinsic motivation, what’s critical and important to you, on the world.
 
Sarah E. Brown 0:19
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women, where we talk about challenges senior female leaders face in being happy and successful at work. I’m your host, Dr. Sarah E. Brown.
 
Sarah E. Brown 0:39
My guest today is Dr. Alan M. Patterson. He’s an organizational development consultant specializing in executive and leadership development. Having led hundreds of clients for over four decades, Dr. Patterson continues to ignore standard coaching methods, which we’re going to delve into, opting instead to pursue and lead clients down the path of meaningful careers that are not only successful but also rewarding. He’s worked with everyone from the Federal Reserve Bank to Hewlett Packard to Major League Baseball, and the United States Navy. And his new book is entitled, Burn Ladders, Build Bridges, Pursuing Work with Meaning and Purpose. Welcome, Alan!
 
Alan Patterson 1:33
Welcome to you. Thank you so much!
 
Sarah E. Brown 1:36
That’s my pleasure! A whole lot there, I want to unpack. But let me start by just painting the scene of how you typically work with organizations and what you’re helping, particularly female leaders, accomplish or address.
 
Alan Patterson 1:51
Well, it’s been at two levels. I don’t think this is unusual. From an organizational consulting capacity, it’s talking about leadership teams and initiatives, they have culture initiatives being a big deal, changing roles and responsibilities. On the coaching side, and in preparation for today’s call, Sarah, I think number-wise, I’ve actually coached more women than men. And I think that the advice and issues that come to me from women are more engaging, and people are more receptive to talking through issues and coming up with ideas that they may not have had on their own.
 
Sarah E. Brown 2:38
Hmm. Interesting! So, one of the things in your bio is that since you’ve been doing all of this coaching and primarily of women, is that you tend to ignore standard coaching methods, what might be a standard coaching method that you ignore?
 
Alan Patterson 2:55
Well, the process I see used most commonly in coaching is to define two, no more than three, goals and say, “Okay, so let’s get those concrete. And then let’s go through the matrix. What do you hope to gain from this? What does success look like? Who do you need for help? And then critically, what are the important steps?” I’m not opposed to that. It’s just I really want people- I want to push people to think about how they reach these goals by creating relationships with other people. So, if it’s not unorthodox. It’s like, I don’t want them so goal-focused, that they can’t say, “I don’t know, maybe I should reach out to Sarah”, or you talk to me about this person. Can they help you with that? “Well, I don’t really know him that well.” Well, that’s the whole point! If that person’s critical, how do you do that? So, I say I don’t want ladder burners to think out of the box. I don’t want a box. I don’t want people to be thinking there’s a box– there is! But I don’t want people to be thinking that. I think there are many more opportunities, nontraditional, and nonlinear, which suit me and the clients I’ve worked with, just fine. I should qualify that the clients I’ve been successful with.
 
Sarah E. Brown 4:17
Okay, all right. So, you threw it out, and I’ve got to ask, what’s a ladder burner?
 
Alan Patterson 4:22
Okay, let me just- a quick backstory. A few years ago, someone that was helping me with marketing said, “Well, what’s your value proposition?” That’s probably a question you get all the time or you ask all the time. I said, “I have no. I can’t use the expletive clue. That I don’t have a clue. You know, Cobblers kids– no shoes.” And this person said, “Well, what’s the dragon? What’s the enemy that you’re trying to help your client slice.” I said, “That one I got, and that is to burn the corporate ladder.” And so that really kind of got me thinking about how people are a mesh in a structure that determines how their career unfolds, and feel they have no control over that. And so, what I’ve landed on is to say burning the ladder is really a little cliche. It’s a change of mindset. It’s a different approach. It’s an alternative approach that says, if you want to pursue meaning and purpose in your work, you need to unleash your intrinsic motivation, what’s critical and important to you on the world. Now, I know that’s general, but it means three things. One is you take ownership of your career development. That’s what ladder burners do. Two is you have to define and find meaning and purpose because nobody’s going to give that to you. And number three, the way in which the actions that you take are around building relationships, not by personal achievement. And that’s how the ladder is built. Just do more, take on more authority, take on more control. I’m saying this is a different approach and a different skill set.
 
Sarah E. Brown 6:15
There you go. There you go! Okay, now you’re speaking my language. So, it is a different skill set. What are the skills that you see that-
 
Alan Patterson 6:24
Well- I’m sorry, please?
 
Sarah E. Brown 6:27
That’s the question. What skills do I need to be a ladder burner?
 
Alan Patterson 6:31
You’re a ladder burner. You don’t need the skills. But I only know- I can say that because, I think, because of what you’ve chosen to do with your career. That’s just my gut-uninformed, a-little-bit-understanding-you-better research. I don’t think these are unusual or different skills, it’s when and how they’re used. Because the first skill set is really about building a base of competence. And everybody knows that! I mean, that’s kind of bread and butter on any in the ladder climbing world. But the additional piece to that is to build credibility. And that’s the emotional intelligence side. And I say you can’t go anywhere in an organization if you don’t have both. You don’t have to be a pro. You don’t have to be a Zen master. You have to be good at your craft, and you have to know how to build and maintain a relationship and what that takes. And that’s that whole communication set around listening, which I don’t know about you, that just floors me that that’s still the top skill of the decade. It’s about asking good questions. It’s about speaking at the level of the audience. And then it gets to be more strategic, as you think a little further down. So, as you build that base of competence and credibility, there’s also a skill set that’s defined around what your job is. I say you define the job. Most people look at their job description, and I say, “Well, how accurate is that?” and they said, “It’s not.” I say, “Great! Burn it along with the ladder” because what you’re doing really needs to consider three major characteristics. It’s not just what you do. It’s how you do it, which, by the way, for all people, is the skill sets and behaviors that you need. And the third piece, which I think is absolutely essential, is who you do it with. And I don’t think people normally think of it that way. But I want people to think of it that way because that’s going to be the key moving forward. So, you get that, as I say, is creating context. And I know that’s a popular word, but I’m trying to make it bigger than just what your job description is. Now we’re moving toward the bridge, and that bridge is all about building relationships. Those relationships that you build, Sarah, are of your choosing. I mean, and maybe you’ll look and discover at your knee, climbing the ladder, you don’t have control over, building relationships, and the structure of that bridge is up to you. And that, to me, is liberating. So, it’s those relationships that are going to give you juice, that is going to excite you, that are going to help you understand what’s critical and important to you, and you’re going to meet some incredible people along the way, and that’s the motivating factor! And from there, it’s about creating impact, which is that whole set of influence skills. How do you sell your ideas? How do you enlist people’s support? How do you relate to people on both an emotional and rational level– all influence related? And then it’s about what’s the skill set for creating meaning. I’m not saying you have to be in an environment with that where people enrich you and you enrich them so that you can say, “I may not have won wimble timber by George. I made the finals! Isn’t that something?”
 
Sarah E. Brown 10:12
So, I love what you’re saying. And you’re certainly singing to the choir here around defining success your own way and burning the ladder and finding your own meaning and purpose, and more importantly, taking 100% responsibility for doing so. So, I’m with you, 100% on that!
 
Alan Patterson 10:30
Hallelujah!
 
Sarah E. Brown 10:35
Hi, this is Sarah Brown, again, the host of the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. I hope you are enjoying this episode and gaining some tips and inspiration on how you can be happier, more successful, and experience less stress at work. If you would like to learn more about how you can empower the women in your organization to do the same, simply click on the show notes to see how you can connect with me. As an added bonus for my podcast guests, you will see how you can book 30 minutes with me to explore how you can implement a scalable self-coaching program for the woman in your organization. Simply visit bookachatwithsarahebrown.com. Now back to this informative episode!
 
Sarah E. Brown 11:32
Now I have a question for you, though, it’s on the part around who you do it with. How do I go about identifying who I need to have as a part of my team, from your perspective?
 
Alan Patterson 11:47
I am so glad! I didn’t that wasn’t a plant question. We didn’t-
 
Sarah E. Brown 11:51
No, it wasn’t!
 
Alan Patterson 11:53
Let’s just make sure that you know, okay? Just like a consultant, you know, we’re going to put things in buckets, and in the matrix, and so forth. I say I want people to consider who they build relationships around three and three characteristic types of positions. One is people in your critical path. Now, why? You have relationships. You have had exchanges, and connections with these people, but it’s all around the work itself. That happens without trying to do it, but I’m saying this is not about connections. This is about relationships. How well do you understand what’s critical and important to them? Not every person you work with, but I’d want to be able to sit down with you. Let’s just use this podcast as an example, Sarah, and say, “Well, what did you think? And how did it go and give me some advice? And here’s what I saw.” And it’s like, well, that’s a different conversation than how many minutes do we go? The second group of people is really, really important. And they are the movers and shakers inside an organization, the influencers, and the decision-makers. Well, who are they? Just ask people! Who is cool? Who is influential? Who is important? You have to have a reason to talk to them. I may be able to see you in an elevator. And we could commune because being talkative and an extrovert, it’s like that might happen naturally. But people need a reason to go to those people. And I think the reasons are all about asking those people for their perspective. It’s not about you. You want the visibility, but I’m not there to sell myself and ask you for a promotion– yet. What I’m here to find out about is what you see going on in the business, in the industry. What do you see about, let’s say, you and I are talking about women, as I’ve done with some of my- one clients in particular in the biotech field. She said she was one of the 35 people, 35 women, in an organization of 2000 people that had the title of manager and above. And it’s like, “That’s nuts. What’s that all about?” Any way to have those discussions with influencers, you are building relationships that are critical? Are they instrumental? Well, they may be at first because you’re looking for their help. But over time, it’s well beyond that, because many of those people are going to be in different places, and so are you. But there you go. You say, “Well, that’s my network.” Well, it’s not a network to get tickets to Hamilton. It’s a network to talk to people and to understand what’s critical and important to them, which as I said earlier, helps define what’s critical and important to you. You resonate. Yeah, I don’t know how many people have that. We’re not talking about thousands, but I can imagine, in the work that you’ve done, you don’t have 10s, maybe a hundred people you feel you have a relationship with that started out as something that was more business oriented. I’m not saying these are personal relationships. So that’s group number two. Group number three, are, I think you’ll like this one, people that can help you with your career. And those people, you need to cultivate those relationships. It’s not just about having a mentor. I say people are lucky if they have a mentor. They’re lucky if they have a great boss. They’re lucky if they have a role model, besides their parents. I just don’t see a whole lot of that. But find those people, especially those you’ve gotten to know that can help sponsor you. A lot of organizations, and you tell me because you’ve got a lot more experience, sponsors can be critical for people that are looking for more senior level jobs when they have someone go to bat. And it’s not, if I may say, it’s not just a woman having a woman in a senior position. It’s also having men that say, “Dr. Brown is our person” and provide that cover and protection that may be needed if there’s some dissension around. Well, that’s- she doesn’t have the pedigree. I heard that with a client of mine. “Oh, you don’t have the pedigree.” In the meantime, three people from the C suite, one has been fired, and two have left. Is that pedigree? So that’s how you build relationships. Every conversation is an opportunity for a relationship. That’s the way I see it. And I don’t mean you have to talk to strangers. I mean, it’s, as I like to say, it’s not a full-time job, it’s a full-time responsibility.
 
Sarah E. Brown 16:39
And it is your individual responsibility. That’s my point of view.
 
Alan Patterson 16:45
Amen! Hallelujah. Absolutely.
 
Sarah E. Brown 16:47
And one of the things I have found is that when you’re actively engaged in doing that, even if the person can’t help you, even if the person is not likely to sponsor you, you are likely to shift and expand your perspective just by understanding theirs.
 
Alan Patterson 17:05
How cool is that, though? I mean, what else are we doing in our lives if we’re not making those kinds of heart-to-heart connections? Part of this is my age, I’m sure. But I mean, what else is there? That’s why it’s a nontraditional coaching method. It’s like, there’s got to be a kick in here somewhere.
 
Sarah E. Brown 17:28
So, the other thing you said is that part of what you’re doing is finding the environment, now these are my words, they’re not yours, I’m trying to remember your exact words. But my words for what you said were an environment in which you can thrive, and would you describe that comment again around the environment?
 
Alan Patterson 17:46
Yeah, this is, right now, it’s a little more- yeah. Let me just say what’s on my mind. I described it as context. You know, we talk about job descriptions, it’s not big enough, that’s not broad enough. You need to understand from a development, skill development, and knowledge development, you need to be thinking strategically and being able to see the bigger picture. I’m saying, you have concentric circles of people that exist from your position outward. And so, creating context, to me, is the people whom you’re making decisions about who you’re spending time with. And over time, those people may not all exist inside the organization. That’s why people leave, I hope, that’s why people leave because they’re deciding to go with people and work with people who respect and appreciate them, and let them know they’re good enough. I mean, this is kind of basic, but I say the ladder is the road to– not good enough. Eventually, you’re going to get stalled or kicked off or jump. But when you surround yourself, so you are maybe, not maybe, you’re selective about the people you choose to surround yourself with. I don’t know that it always means you’re going to go to an organization and everybody there is things like you do. That will be great if you can do that. I’m just saying that your group, your context, includes people inside and outside the organization that gives you purpose in being.
 
Sarah E. Brown 19:27
Okay, so would I be correct in saying if the environment is not supporting you in doing that it’s your responsibility to find one that does?
 
Alan Patterson 19:36
Yes.
 
Sarah E. Brown 19:36
Okay.
 
Alan Patterson 19:37
Leave.
 
Sarah E. Brown 19:37
Leave.
 
Alan Patterson 19:39
You’re worth it! That’s why I say, “Don’t put up with an idiot boss. Why would you do that? Why would you work with people that disrespect you?” And I don’t care what the reason is, oh I can understand as a fellow told me last Friday. “You know, I’ve got two kids on their way to college.” It’s like I understand that. I know that. You’re worth more than working for an idiot. Pardon me. He’s putting it so well. Don’t! Just don’t do it.
 
Sarah E. Brown 20:03
Great. So, Alan, why did you decide to write a book?
 
Alan Patterson 20:07
Well, it happened before the pandemic. I think, when I got into the pandemic, it was like, “Okay, thank goodness I got something to do.” I was struck by what I was picking up about everybody, not everybody. People like to diss millennials and now Gen Z. And it’s like, I don’t know, I was- I grew up in the 60s. You know, being a little rebellious and trying to make a difference at work, I thought that was pretty cool. And so, I wanted to understand what that was about. And then you look at a lot of Gallup polls, and as I did, and you see that four out of five people leaving college want to have meaning and a job with meaning and purpose. And I just don’t think that it’s understood how that happens, because the organization doesn’t give it to you. And that really got me going down the line of owning your career development. So don’t think that you’re going to join an organization and that they’re going to find out a purpose and meaning for you, you have to do it. And it was spurred by, Sarah, by a lot of clients I had worked with in the past, very bright, highly trained, many in the technical fields like IT and engineering and RND, that really didn’t understand what it meant to promote yourself. They thought it was kissing up. And I do think that this is about being a perfectionist, that’s something I’ve seen several people, clients that I’ve worked with. It’s like, you don’t have to do that. “Well, I have to prove myself.” Well, prove yourself around what? And so, all this stuff started jumbling around in my head. And I said, “Well, what if it were all about burning the ladder, getting that out of your mindset? And realizing the action comes by building bridges and banking on it. Believing it, that you’ll find the work that you want?” I actually think you’re going to make more money if you build bridges, because you’re going to find people you don’t even consider they’re going to say, “Hey, come work here” or “Let’s do this.”
 
Sarah E. Brown 22:22
What great advice! So, remembering that my audience is primarily senior female executives, what’s one piece of advice you would leave with them? Or one question I should have asked that you would really like to share with this audience?
 
Alan Patterson 22:38
Well, I think that women in senior positions, as leaders, have a responsibility to help people figure out how to get unstuck in their careers. Now, what do I mean by that? I think everybody gets stuck. You talk, Sarah, you talked about people at mid-career? I mean, gosh, that’s been documented for years. Midlife, mid-career, all that stuff going way back. But I think the difference is that as a senior leader, as a woman in a leadership position, embracing the idea that it’s not a matter of going up, it’s looking at other opportunities. And the advice can be just try something else. You can take baby steps. You can work on projects, you know. I know that organizations are looking at their pay scales and job classifications and all that. Because if you said I’m an engineer, but I want to go work in accounting, you know, what would that mean? I think from a senior leadership position, it’s more than just the message that you’re good enough, it’s “Why don’t you try something like this?”
 
Sarah E. Brown 24:00
There you go. So, Alan, where can people find you?
 
Alan Patterson 24:04
Well, they can find me at dralanpatterson.com, that’s all one word. And they can find me, you’ll like this, at ladderburners.com. And I want to say something, if I may, Sarah. I know this was part of your questions. I have a tool that I think’s really very good about helping people determine who they should be building relationships with. And one of my colleagues that I work with, we set it up so that it’s going to be on the website, and it’s going to be called “The Job Wheel”. And it’s all about identifying who are those people in your spheres, and deciding who are the most critical you need to build relationships with and what you would be doing with them. So, I want to offer that up to your listeners.
 
Sarah E. Brown 24:56
That’s great! And which website is that on? Dralanpatterson?
 
Alan Patterson 25:00
It’ll be on ladderburners.com.
 
Sarah E. Brown 25:01
On ladderburners.com.
 
Alan Patterson 25:03
Yeah.
 
Sarah E. Brown 25:03
Okay. And that will be in the show notes. Ladderburners.com, you can get The Job Wheel and learn more about who you need to be building relationships with.
 
Alan Patterson 25:12
Yep.
 
Sarah E. Brown 25:13
Alan, thank you so much for being with me today!
 
Alan Patterson 25:16
Thank you for asking me. It’s been a pleasure, Sarah!
 
Sarah E. Brown 25:20
Thanks for listening to the KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. If you like what you’re hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to www.sarahebrown.com. You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes and learn more about our podcast guests, read my blog, browse through the books or contact us for a chat. Goodbye for now!

 

Sarah E. Brown
Sarah E. Brown

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